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Something that I have noticed about affairs is that the cheating spouse loses respect. Sometimes it’s prior to meeting AP, but it seems that a vast majority "lose respect " once AP enters the picture. How petty. I put quotes around lose respect because really this is a fundamental flaw with the cheater.

I don’t know if I’m in R, I know many here would tell me I’m a moron for even considering it after everything. I’m trying right now to just have a good relationship with my WW, because we have 5 young and they are more important. Does it mean continued marriage? I don’t know, what I am working on is just rebuilding our relationship, she’s receptive to that and us being good around each other makes our kid’s life better. She said something though that has bothered me immensely. She told me she isn’t my enemy and we will never heal as long as I see her that way. Yeah no shit, but I don’t think I’m wrong for seeing her that way.

She certainly was, for three years. Choosing her boyfriend over our marriage and family certainly makes her the enemy in my mind. I don’t care how remorseful she is now, doesn’t change that she chose to become my enemy repeatedly, and of course blamed me for it. She’s probably remorseful now, though I’ve heard it all before and I definitely don’t trust her at all.

How does it work, how do you flip sides and then act like well we are a team now. How do I tell her she’s going to have to accept that no matter what happens she became my worst enemy and that stain never comes out?

How do I tell her she’s going to have to accept that no matter what happens she became my worst enemy and that stain never comes out?

That take makes perfect sense. It’s a take though, that sounds like you’re already done and gone. Which is totally understandable. I’m just responding to your thoughts of sticking around despite how you feel now.

I think if "no matter what happens" is your focus, then R isn’t remotely possible.

For me, it became about what my wife aimed for now, today. If I was going to stay, it had to be about what we were building versus what the A destroyed.

You can choose to focus on the absolute worst about the past or choose to offer her a shot to show she is more than her worst choices. I’m sure better than my worst days, worst choices, so I let my wife show me she was on my side.

I’ll always hate what happened, I found it wasn’t helpful for me to hate her as well.

Pretty tough to rebuild if enemy is how you see her.

Well but your WW *is* your enemy. She is actually an enemy to your 5 kids too, taking POSOM's side over theirs.

And so your one concern should be protecting your kids (and yourself) from WW. And so on that note, your concern should not be about having a "good relationship" with her (impossible, AND your efforts in that regard are probably extremely damaging to your kids as it may be minimizing your WW's actions against them, as well as showing a lack of self-respect on your part--your sons are modeling your behaviour you know).

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:25 AM, Thursday, April 24th]

Oldwounds,

I do agree with you, but I am deeply struggling with how to get there. If WW had confessed everything and ended the A all the way back on DD 1, I do believe it would be easier. Instead it got dragged out to a false R and dd2 and then after all of that drama, finding out she never went NC for an extra two years, all the while telling me how sorry she was and all the other right things. That’s where I’m stuck.

WBFA,

I have self respect. And I hope my son models me. I have protected him when no one else would. I went to court for him to make sure AP would stay out of his life. I made sure that he was safe at school, and that he had an open door to me at anytime, and I got him to amazing therapist. More importantly, I never made him feel that he had to chose between me and his mom. He can love his mom and still love me and it won’t damage our relationship. He knows what happened, but he is still only a kid. What’s more he sees that I can be hurt but doesn’t mean I have to make the world suffer because of it. I am still polite and respectful to WW, especially in front of kids. Doesn’t make me a doormat, it means that my relationship with her doesn’t have to affect anyone but her. My kindness is not weakness

Hell —

What has she done to own her actions and choices?

With the extended lack of NC, the continued lies, she has to understand why you still see her as someone not to be trusted. If she doesn’t, that’s a red flag.

Words definitely lose meaning after an A, her actions are far more important.

Only consistent, relentless effort to be better and do better, the work of repairing her issues and helping you repair the M can give things a chance for you to get un-stuck.

When you say she is "probably remorseful" — I’m not sure what that means.

Wanting to keep the family together isn’t being a moron, but if your WS is still blaming you in any way or the M, then there isn’t anything to work with.

I can relate to the struggles you are having in this situation. My perspective is shaped by a personal story that highlights why I could never see a betrayer than anything other than the bad guy.

Growing up, my father worked away three to five days a week. This left my mother juggling part-time work and the immense responsibility of raising three kids on her own. When the news of his infidelity came to light, we were all still young, but our hearts ached for her. We witnessed her struggle, the palpable sadness that seeped into our home's corners. Though she fought to shield us from her heartache, her pain was inescapable—like a shadow that lingered even in moments of laughter.

Years later, after the dust settled from that storm, I found myself questioning why my mother had even attempted to reconcile with him. For a few years, she held onto the hope of change, but he merely became a master at concealing his wrongdoings. I was baffled. How could she continue to extend an olive branch to someone who had caused her so much suffering? How could she act as if he were anything other than the enemy?

In a moment of vulnerability, I asked her, "How can you genuinely wish someone who stabbed you in the back a good day as they leave for work? How can you celebrate their successes? How can you want them to thrive in life after all they’ve done?"

Her answer surprised me: "You don’t just think about the betrayal all the time."

For her, perhaps that was true, but for me, I couldn't escape it. I would think of the betrayal all the time. I couldn’t fathom wishing him well or rejoicing in his achievements. The anger and hurt loomed too large in my heart. Betrayal is the deepest of cuts. It's for very good reason that Dante kept the center of hell for those who betray.

If I found myself in your shoes, I would seek to cut ties as much as possible. To be honest, if it weren’t for the kids, I might even actively hope she had a terrible life. But ultimately, my aim would be to get her out of your mind—much like I've learned to do with others who drifted in and out of my life. Including my father.

Reconciliation may be a path some take, but I’ve come to understand that it’s not a journey everyone can—or should—embark on. Ultimately some people can take the disrespect, forgive and move forward. But others, the likes of me (and perhaps you), would never be able to see the person as anything other than the enemy.

All of this is to say, I have no advice for you other than to say, I relate. I'm not religious but I truly feel thankful I don't have kids with a cheater. I fear what it would drive me to do. In all likelihood, I'd be an absent father, unable to bring myself to be around my own children as it would mean communicating with their mother. So the fact you are where you are, places you a moral rung above myself.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:05 AM, Thursday, April 24th]

I believe that remorse has different definitions to different people. To me, someone who is remorseful for their actions truly understands the full impact(s) of what their actions brought. Whether it be infidelity/addiction/you name it---in my opinion, the perpetrator gets *it*.

Your wife may get there; she may not. But if she does, she would fully understand your current apprehension. My wife, 10+ years later, understands that I have not forgiven her, and may never do so. She doesn't ask for forgiveness. She's appreciative that we are still together, and like many people with now well-enforced boundaries, tries to be the best version of herself. The person during her drinking/affair times is someone that repulses her---for what she did to herself and her family. That is something that many can build on.

And I highly doubt that you view her as your enemy. You view her with very wary optimism, as should be expected. You've had your world shattered, and misled while under the assumption of reconciling....for years. She's not the real deal right now. At best, she's working on becoming such, with an unfortunate lack of self-awareness at this point. At worst, she's the exact opposite. Only time will tell. In a mathematical explanation, remorse is *continued and consistent actions over time*. Not enough time has elapsed, and not enough consistent actions have occurred. Her understanding your very justifiable mindset would be a good start.

When you have asked your wife how can you possibly not see her as an enemy when she has proven that not only is she capable of stabbing you in the back, but that she can do it repeatedly. That what you thought was important to both of you (your family) she endangered and allowed to continue to happen until YOU had to get a protective order. She doesnt get to declare herself a non enemy after she chose to sow chaos and harm.
There is a reason why people who are sent to prison are called felons even after release. They may have served their time and hopefully learned from their mistakes and work to correct them, but they will always carry the burden of people knowing what they are capable of doing.
What does your wife say that she is if she isnt your enemy?
Your "wife"?
Your "ally"?
Your "friend"?
Your "partner"
Ask her to explain what she is to you after all she has done or what she has done since the affair to earn a title other than enemy.
I think if my ex wife had thrown this Bullcrap my way she would find all her stuff in garbage bags outside and my kids would have helped me do it.
I hope you are doing well HINHF. Your story is one that I think I would have been in jail for double murder if I was in your shoes. Please continue to keep us updated and take care of yourself first. Maybe your non enemy wife will do herself a favor and think about how lucky she is that you can even be civil towards her after what she has done.

Hells

Does she even see the OM as a person who was willing to destroy the children's family and psychological health, as an enemy

In our society we do not see infidelity as child abuse, but it clearly is

Does she secretly or openly still see him as a perfect type or believe he's her soulmate?

When we were kids we got the "stink eye", a frown and a talking to if we lied. So, we grew up thinking lying is an egregious sin. One of the hardest things to accept is that everyone lies, including ourselves. NO ONE is going to tell you the absolute truth if it is going to boomerang back onto them. Her lying about the affair became her second language. The first language was the one that kept your marriage going. The second one was the lies, of omission and commission. Take your expectations of her off the table. You have a wife who cheated and lied for three years. Your personality, not ours, will determine whether you can get past it. Be realistic. Do you hold grudges? If so you probably need to plan on physical separation or IHS. If you can let go of the anger and resentment you and she might have a chance. I don’t judge anyone who makes any of these choices. You have to live with what you choose.
My hope is that you figure your way out of infidelity pains asap. The ongoing stress does a number on your overall health.

I feel a lot about reconciliation as old wounds does, so any basis for me in true reconciliation rings true with what he says.

I think you are wise not to be emotionally vulnerable yet with your wife. She has done some pretty disastrous things and while I do fully believe a ws can change if they want to and apply themselves, for me it’s a wait and see proposition, with intentional trust being built by the ws.

However, you are committed to staying because of your financial situation and your children. And I fully respect that. And given the time is going to pass anyway, you may be able to eventually build something new. I can see why it would be important to at least be cordial at times with the other because if I am not mistaken this has been more of a roommate situation? Can you talk about that a little bit- because I know when you were here posting that is where it sort of left off. Kind of a quasi- in house separation deal.

It bothers me a little as to why she says she isn’t your enemy, but I think communicate over that statement. Is she saying it now because she truly has good intentions? I have no idea, but I could go back and think of things that I said where I was more sure of myself than my husband. But showing him that long term and earning my way back to his heart was still a process that took years.

I think so not put pressure on yourself to feel differently. Because even if that were to happen it would be a gradual process spurred on by what you are seeing and feeling. I would encourage you however, to continue to work on yourself and your healing, which as of the last posting it seemed like you were in IC. Can you provide an update on this?

I personally have seen you grow and heal since you have been here. Your wife scorched the earth with you. You were so willing to do whatever to make it work and she took advantage of that. I can see why there would be a world of hesitation.

I suspect that when she finally pushed you away and you stayed removed from her may have caused some things to dawn on her, but I can not be assuring of this.

I will share that when my husband had us drawing up the divorce papers and distanced himself from me, that was my rock bottom. And that did precipitate me to evaluate myself more fully. Has she done anything to continue to work on herself or show you anything solid in the interim? Has that been close to a year ago that you moved into another part of the house?

Bottom line is the reason a ws can and does change their mind is that hardships often does cause growth. It doesn’t always though. If you want to try and move closer to her she is going to have to be able to explain the change of path. What she has learned. Why she wants this but once didn’t. Not all at once either, this has got to be a slow process and I don’t think it’s at all bad you go in with a bit of a hardened heart. I think most reconciliations have periods of fake it until you make it sort of thing.

So overall, it’s fine to play nice and lift some of the gates. Date each other. Have discussions about values. If she is going to win you back it’s her that needs to show the vulnerability at first and be open about her shifting perspectives.

This isn’t a second chance, this is a third chance. I would advise you to keep focusing on yourself, what you need and want. From there, you may be able to open yourself to her again, but I think it has to happen gradually and naturally. You went all in before and got your heart smashed in the process. I can appreciate the situation you find yourself in, becaue you work so much it would be hard for you to have and see your kids if you aren’t living with them. You are to the limit financially and can’t hold two households together. Her going to work would only pay for daycare, if it would do that. So I can see why you may want to make the best of the situation.

Go slow. Focus on you. I am not saying don’t be nice to her or cooperate in the process, I am saying hold back that softer part of yourself until it starts to feel right. And accept that it may never feel right. I say this because whatever we try to force is typically working against ourselves. It’s how the statement what we resist persists. I would focus on accepting what is and if it evolves in the right way so will your feelings.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:13 PM, Thursday, April 24th]

How do I tell her she’s going to have to accept that no matter what happens she became my worst enemy and that stain never comes out?

Dear Mrs HINHF,

Imagine that you're a soldier. You and HINHF are in the same platoon and you've sworn an oath to always have each other's backs. One day, you're walking guard duty and you meet an enemy soldier. He seems pretty nice, not like an enemy at all, so you start meeting him secretly and forging a new alliance. Now you're confused about where your allegiance lies.

You tell HINHF that you're on his side, but you're creeping over enemy lines when he's not looking and hoping that he won't find out. He does, and you reassure him that you'll never do that again. You do it again. You reassure him again. Then you do it again. The soldier takes shots at your platoon (son) and you don't drop him on the spot like you should.

Now you're back in HINHF's camp and assuring him, once again, that you're on his side. He wants to believe that, but your track record isn't good, and your actions have caused a lot of hate and discontent, not just for the two of you, but for the whole platoon (family).

He'll never fully trust again that you won't shoot him in the back. You're not a good risk. But he is choosing to give you another chance at a relationship (of some sort), and you need to OWN that you WERE the enemy. Every time you talk about your relationship, you need to apologize instead of admonishing HINHF for having a perfectly natural response to what you repeatedly did to him, reassure him (again) that you'll never do it again, and back up that reassurance with your actions. It will take a lifetime of doing this, and you will still never be trusted fully again.

Own it. Apologize for it, a lot. Figure out what made you do what you did so that you'll never do it again. Atone for your actions.

Sincerely,
SS33

Here's a different take for your consideration.

IMO, BSes are usually collateral damage. IME and in my reading, I see that the BS is rarely, if ever, in the WS's mind while they are cheating. My WS was not my enemy, because in a very real sense, I didn't exist for her in many areas of her life.

Further, I found out in MC that even when she thought I was in her world, I wasn't because she usually dealt with her image of me, not with the me I actually was. She still does that sometimes. Often. Hell, I would have been unhappy with the person she made me out to be when in her drama triangles.

Don't get me wrong. The amount of pain I had to process was just under the maximum I could take, almost by definition. But IMO, that's because I was betrayed, not because I thought I was attacked.

IDGAF about intentions, though. My W hurt me, and I had to and had the power to decide what I was going to do in response. Both D & R are reasonable - I just had to decide what I wanted, and since I wanted R, I had to decide how likely success would be.

In any case, I didn't see my W as my enemy. Now that I think of it, I guess I saw her as a potential partner, and I had a free choice WRT pursuing a relationship - pursuing a relationship, not pursuing her. I decided on my requirements for R. She agreed to meet them. She followed through and did meet them. I was right about what I wanted. As a result, we're still together.

If my W had continued to lie, I think I'd have dumped her, but we were empty-nesters, and it would have been easier to split than when our son was young. Your sitch is much different, and I think I understand why you're not quick to pull the plug on your M.

IOW, I didn't view my W as my enemy, and I don't view your W as yours, but I end up at least potentially in the same place.

It's important to note, I think, that I did npt force myself into the above POV. Perceiving my W on d-day and after, I just saw a lost soul who had sold herself out because of her own pain. I believe that's the result of my biology and because of what I understood about love, anger, desire, forgiveness, etc. during my life.

I'm writing about my natural response to W's revelation of her A on d-day. So my reco is to NOT force yourself into one stance or another after being betrayed.

Rather, let your awareness of your own natural response grow as you consider your options. If you truly want D, R probably won't work, no matter how much you try to force a desire for R and no matter how remorseful your WS may be. By the same token, if you want R, even if your WS isn't remorseful (which makes R impossible, IMO), you won't have an optimal D IMO without giving R a shot.

Focus on your healing. Let the R/D action come out of that.

*****

To be explicit: I don't see the WS as an enemy during the 1st A. IMO, the WS moves into an enemy role if they continue the A or start a new A after a d-day.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:45 PM, Thursday, April 24th]

I believe multiple D-Days and False R are a different beast. Couple that with lies, no remorse and an AP interacting/abusing your kid makes that WS an enemy in my eyes. Maybe one day she will redeem herself with years of work and putting the trust back. She may become a reformed person and can lose the "enemy" label but she certainly acted like the enemy during that time period.

Since you are willing to give her another chance she should be thankful for that and work towards redemption. Proving to you that she is in fact reformed. This is too soon to be worried about whether or not she's an enemy.

I couldn't get past what my xWS did he was my enemy and he continually treated me like crap through his narcissistic tendencies and emotional abuse. I had to move towards D or I would have stayed mentally ill.

I do hope your WW is working hard on herself and the M. She needs to drop the "I'm not your enemy" and work towards "I am going to prove to you that I am a reformed person and that I want you and this M to be healthy so that one day you will believe that I won't become your enemy again."

You can choose to live with a viper because you don’t trust your kids to be alone with the viper. But you would be foolish to ever believe the viper is just a harmless garden snake.

Hello. Long time lurker here.I apologize if this is a thread jack, please remove if so. I used this site for healing and understanding. I didn't need it for what to do after finding out, because I knew adultery was a hard no for me. Mainly because my mother was a cheater as well, and I got a front row seat to see how it destroyed a great man. While all the betrayed here know pretty much the pain and confusion you are struggling with, I'd like to offer a perspective from a child who was threatened by one of my egg donor's asshole boyfriends. Even after so many DECADES this is still such a kick in the face. Yes, I've been to therapy. Out of 3 therapists and many years(2 were great one therapist was meh), it's still there.It's an emasculating thing that always has my looking out for a potential confrontation.An insecurity I've dealt with by training and physical conditioning(a silver lining to the trauma, my physical health has always been great since for life so far) I'm glad your son is in therapy, my experience was that it did nothing to take it away, but perhaps just dull the betrayal and trauma to something more like a background noise than a front and center obstacle. It's going to be a long road, i hope he can heal. There is so much thats a challenge for me from that experience, even now, typing this, im having to be aware of my increased heart rate and anxiety. I was 15 when this happened, had the asshole waited 2 more years, i would have been 6ft and had 2 years of hard martial arts training(i never wanted to feel unsafe again), and I would have wiped that f@*king smug smile off his face. I have a good life now, great home, lovely woman by my side, hell even my dream project car, but there is still that fantasy of getting a time machine and having my adult self confront this adult child bully. As to my dad. He was my hero. He's featured in a book for some of his war exploits, a decorated veteran (silver and bronze stars), an accomplished state department asset(yup, so many stories), and he did very well in the private sector. He was loved and respected by so many, i had the honor of taking care of him till his last days, and really owe him everything as far as who I am. I'm telling you all this so you can get an idea of what a great man he was.Even with all those amazing accomplishments, it's still a hard pill for me to swallow that he didn't divorce her and i had to watch that shit show for 3 years before i finally left for boot camp. Fyi, he did beat the hell out of that boyfriend, and he let me know. It was a great comfort for me. Im not advocating violence to you, but please let your son know all the steps you have/are taking to insure his future safety. He needs some peace of mind and an example of you protecting him.One more thing from my pov, martial arts really helped me out and i made it an important part of my healing and therapy(ask him if he wants to sign up for boxing,wrestling,karate,mma,judo, ANYTHING). Good luck to you my dear man, your pain and love for your family really comes through from your thoughts. We are all rooting for you and your children. Everyone sincerely wants for you and yours to find peace and healing, even, and maybe especially, some of the people swinging 2x4's. Sorry for the scatterbrained writing, was a bit triggered from reading about your son's ordeal. Take care, best of luck to you sir.

A WS attacks the M or relationship and those within it. She set your life on fire and as you were putting it out she's over in the corner playing with matches. I don't consider my W an enemy today but she definitely was during her A and TT. She has clarity now and realizes what she was risking. She is very upset with what she had become and would agree that she was an enemy in the camp.