SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For the record, I believe that the General Social Survey out of U Chicago now provides the best statistics - but they know some people lie on face to face interviews, and that's what the GSS is or used to be based on. We also know people lie on anonymous, questionnaire-based, non-face to face surveys.

I once saw a small survey based on both face to face interview and anonymous surveys. IIRC, 6 times as many people admitted cheating on the survey as admitted cheating in the interviews. If that ratio carries through to the GSS, about 150% of men and 100% or women cheat.

@sisoon I'm not sure I understand, but I wasn't referring to the proportion of people who cheat, I meant how well satisfaction within the primary relationship can predict who has affairs.

I asked AI for a better explanation and it gave me: "Low relationship satisfaction is one of the strongest interpersonal predictors of infidelity, yet it explains only a modest portion of the overall statistical variance. Across psychological literature, dyadic elements—such as relationship happiness, romantic love, and overall quality—typically account for roughly 15% to 21% of the variance in who is unfaithful, with notable nuances between genders and relationship types."

You are absolutely right that people's self-reports could be untrue for all manner of reasons, but even if we accept self-report at face value, relationship satisfaction is a very poor predictor of who will have an affair (as I guess we all knew already, but somehow much of couples therapy seems to approach the issue as if that is not the case).

@StrugglingThrough you mentioned that you were resistant to the idea that attachment type has an impact on the unfaithful's actions, but may I inquire if you know what attachment type your husband is?

I wouldn't say I am resistant to it, but I don't think the evidence for it is very strong.

You are absolutely right that people's self-reports could be untrue for all manner of reasons, but even if we accept self-report at face value, relationship satisfaction is a very poor predictor of who will have an affair (as I guess we all knew already, but somehow much of couples therapy seems to approach the issue as if that is not the case).

Which is why we're so cautious here about couples therapy shortly after infidelity is discovered. Many focus on an unmet needs model, when unmet needs have little if anything to do with the choices a cheater makes. That has a way of implying there's at least some fault to be laid at the feet of the betrayed.

Marital issues and unmet needs should absolutely be addressed, but when you introduce infidelity into the mix it creates a whole new wound that overshadows pretty much any preexisting issues.

I look at it as if a couple is in a triage room. The cheater might have a broken leg, but the betrayed spouse is lying on the floor bleeding out from a gunshot wound to the chest. The broken leg needs attention for sure, but you have to stop the bleeding from the gunshot wound and get that person stabilized first before dealing with the broken leg.

It's a very good point. Sadly the fact remains that many of these therapists are continuing to operate from this or other restrictive types of models, to charge a lot of money for it, and to cause harm. Some publish information in books, online or on social media along the same lines which I'm sure also harms people.

"Unmet needs" implies that there was something the spouse could have supplied that would have prevented the affair. Often there was not. Shame, inadequacy, emptiness, and a chronic sense of not being enough are internal problems, not marital shortages.

"Validation" is often the wrong word. Many affairs provide ego reinforcement, not validation. Feeling desirable, exciting, important, powerful, or special is different from having one’s feelings understood and acknowledged.

"Novelty" is usually an umbrella term for the more important mechanisms underneath it: escape, transgression, secrecy, uncertainty, anticipation, and an altered sense of self. Newness by itself explains very little.

"Opportunity" explains almost nothing because opportunity is ubiquitous. The real question is why one cultivates it, conceals it, escalates it, and repeatedly returns to it.

Those explanations can also become post hoc rationalizations. Once the behavior exists, the mind has strong incentives to construct a story that makes it feel understandable. Sincerity does not establish causation.

Regarding unmet needs/dissatisfaction of a relationship/attachment style:

I am half the relationship. If I am unhappy, and remain unhappy enough that resentments build- then that is primarily my issue. My perceptions are based not in reality but how I choose to look at the data and also what I choose to do with the data.

This is why I think you see a lot of avoidant/anxious avoidant in the ws camp. We don’t communicate, we don’t like rocking the boat. You add people pleasing to the mix and pretty much you have a recipe for some sort of disaster, if not cheating.

I was so trapped in the mindset that if I make too many demands, waves, etc, then I will not be loved. This was all driven through fear of abandonment/rejection.

I got very good at self abandonment until it reached a crisis point.

And the reality was I just needed to be able to be honest with myself and learn to communicate better, mix in a few things to learn to ask for—-like my husband would get defensive (probably because of how I was presenting what I wanted) and sometimes because he was more assertive/self assured than me came off dismissively. I have learned to ask for not only what I needed in general, but in the moment.

I still feel avoidant, and I still want to take the easier route the only difference is being able to recognize it and having some skills/language to move forward against my instincts. It’s easier today, but I doubt it will ever be natural. I just know what happens over time is worse than facing it head on. I also know better who I am, and that I am worthy of the types of things I would even think to ask for, so there is that driving force of making my life as enjoyable as I can so I don’t want to escape it.

I know many avoidant people who would never have an affair, so I would say it can create deep unhappiness over time but maybe not a predictor of what they would do about the unhappiness?

@LittleMonk I do think novelty is important when it comes to the neurophysiology of affairs. We attend much more to things that are novel and learning about them happens more strongly and quickly.

I think opportunity can be important too, maybe more in terms of opportunity for secrecy than opportunity to meet people who want to sleep with you. Not everyone has equal opportunities to hide how they are spending their time, but certain jobs, social circles etc. offer more of them.

Perhaps novelty plays some role in attention, but I would argue that familiarity also plays a significant role, and possibly a larger one in many affairs.

Workplace affairs are a good example. The affair partner is often someone the person has known for quite a while. Repeated contact creates familiarity, shared context, trust, and increasing personal disclosure long before the relationship becomes an affair.

The more novel elements may be the secrecy, uncertainty, transgression, anticipation, and the experience of stepping outside ordinary life.

You ask a lot of questions, but I think you’re trying to get to the psychological root of the "wayward spouses" (WS). I’m certainly no expert, but I’ve taken a great interest in psychoanalysis—Freud, Lacan, and so on. It seems to me that infidelity—much like the classic neuroses (obsessive, hysterical, or phobic)—involves a fixation and a regression to the Oedipus complex; it’s a return to the "self-mother-father" triangulation. In the case of wayward spouses, this remains unresolved, and they repeatedly regress to the stage of primary narcissism—cycling back through the oral, anal, and phallic phases. They cast the "betrayed spouse" (BS) in the role of the Oedipal mother or father, while using the "other woman" (OW) or "other man" (OM) as a new object of desire. It’s interesting to try and pinpoint the specific phase where the fixation lies—that’s where "their" underlying reason can be found: Oral: hoarding objects. Anal: holding onto them. Phallic: seeking affection or attention. The "law of the father" (the prohibition against incest) and the attempt to transgress it would help explain the allure of the forbidden, and so on. Of course, it’s far more complex than these few off-the-cuff remarks might suggest.

Which is why we're so cautious here about couples therapy shortly after infidelity is discovered. Many focus on an unmet needs model, when unmet needs have little if anything to do with the choices a cheater makes. That has a way of implying there's at least some fault to be laid at the feet of the betrayed.

I don't think talking about unmet needs necessarily implies that there was something the BS could have done to prevent the betrayal. Some people have all their marital needs met and still cheat. Some people have unmet needs and don't cheat... But I do think having unmet needs in your marriage can exacerbate the underlying internal issues a WS has, and make it more difficult for them to make the right choice to remain faithful.

That doesn't remove their responsibility to still make that right choice, no matter how difficult it is. And there are certainly healthier ways to address the unmet needs, or, if they can't be met and marital conditions are intolerable, to end the relationship.

I don't think talking about unmet needs necessarily implies that there was something the BS could have done to prevent the betrayal. Some people have all their marital needs met and still cheat. Some people have unmet needs and don't cheat... But I do think having unmet needs in your marriage can exacerbate the underlying internal issues a WS has, and make it more difficult for them to make the right choice to remain faithful.

That doesn't remove their responsibility to still make that right choice, no matter how difficult it is. And there are certainly healthier ways to address the unmet needs, or, if they can't be met and marital conditions are intolerable, to end the relationship.

I don't think I really disagree with you on that, Morbs. I can see how unmet needs can lead to conditions that might make some people more vulnerable to infidelity than others, but ultimately they're still responsible for the choices they make.

I'm not saying that unmet needs isn't a problem. It can even be a big problem, but there are so many other options for dealing with it that don't involve infidelity.

I do think, if reconciliation is possible and things can be stabilized, it's reasonable to address the issue. Eventually.

But not while the betrayed is still lying on the gurney bleeding out all over the place.

yes indeedy

"Validation" is often the wrong word. Many affairs provide ego reinforcement, not validation. Feeling desirable, exciting, important, powerful, or special is different from having one’s feelings understood and acknowledged.

No. Validation is the correct word. Not all validation is healthy, and definitely not all correct. Ego-enforcement is a form of validation.

From: Psychology Today

Everyone wants to feel that they matter. They want to be heard and seen, and they want their feelings to be understood and accepted. Validation helps a person feel cared for and supported. Yet, too often a person can feel that their inner experiences are judged and denied. This can lead to low self-worth or feelings of shame. Validating a loved one and acknowledging that you hear them does not mean you have to agree with what is being relayed; hearing a person and agreeing with them are two different things.

Is approval-seeking related to seeking validation?

These behaviors are related. Continually worrying about what others think is similar to seeking validation from others. This may hold you back from living your life, one with purpose and goals as well as values that you believe in. The need for approval and the quest to impress others can push you away from who you are. Seeking to be validated can have the same qualities. It’s best to have a healthy sense of who you are, you will be less inclined to look for approval and validation elsewhere.

Is praise different from validation?
While these two things seem similar they are different. Telling a person that they look nice is a pleasant compliment, and paying a compliment is a form of civility and courtesy. While praise can feel validating, it does not address the person’s interior landscape.

[This message edited by LittleMonk at 3:45 PM, Tuesday, October 20th]

Validation in an affair is different than normal healthy validation.

It’s validation of the actual escapism. A validation of a false self.

In an affair, often you don’t know that person like you do your spouse, and they do not know you. Because it’s a highly transactional relationship, you are only going to get affirmations of the person you are in this escape/fantasy. And you can do the same for them because nothing real is happening. Nothing real meaning there is usually no integration of worlds.

There is no real penalty either for acting unauthentically because you aren’t thinking about the next hour much less planning a future with the person. So saying you love something that you don’t really care that much about won’t result in you having to actually participate in these activities. You aren’t going to be critical of anything because you don’t want to pop the bubble by bringing too much reality. You also have no reason to, what are you going to be critical of?

And underneath this, maybe there are things you notice that you bat away or don’t look at too hard.

It’s easy to validate and be validated when the whole thing doesn’t involve real life. And honestly because the two people in the affair are probably not in the state of self love, it’s like feeding a bottomless pit in a buffet that you keep stuffing your face because you can only eat for a limited time. When have you ever felt great about yourself or validated when you just overate at a buffet? No picture that feeling magnified because it’s coated in shame, guilt, and causes you to keep your head in the same while things just get worse and worse?

In other words it’s a very inauthentic, dark validation.

Did I feel seen in my affair? Yeah. I did think I was having that sensation. But it was just an illusion, no one can see you when you aren’t really presenting yourself- you are just presenting who you wish you were, and it’s usually a terrible reversion to an earlier less mature you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:29 PM, Tuesday, October 20th]

I know many avoidant people who would never have an affair, so I would say it can create deep unhappiness over time but maybe not a predictor of what they would do about the unhappiness?

I've been thinking about this. I consider myself at least somewhat avoidant, especially with men pre-affair. I don't think I would have had an affair even if I were unhappy in my marriage. There are a few reasons, probably not morals and character in the sense that DRSOOLERS is expressing it though.

The main reason I didn't have an affair is the health of my children. In my life experience, divorce and particularly divorces with blended families can be extremely hurtful for children of all ages. Affairs lead to divorce. I would avoid an affair in a marriage with children because I don't want to break up my family. You, or another WS, might have a different experience of divorce and blended families that isn't as negative. I don't think this is a male/female or age/generational thing by the way. I've heard other BS here express this thought. My mind has certainly changed on divorce and its effect on children after my WH's infidelity and reading further here. I'm talking about how I felt pre-affair.

So what happens in those marriages, both mine and my friends who feel similarly and are unhappy? We try with our marriages to resolve issues. We do seek secure attachment in other relationships. We just keep to relatively safe sources like family or same-sex friends in a whole variety of environments. Our marriages stay intact on our side at least until the children are well into adulthood.

How did we keep from developing an attachment to a male friend, ala "Not Just Friends"? Some of us were in extremely male-dominated careers. We all had experiences early in our careers that drove the lessons of NJF home, and we are cautious. Is that avoidant or strong boundaries? I don't know.

One story would be a friend who is about 5 years into her career. She's doing great. She travels a lot, including internationally to fun places for significant periods, and enjoys the work and partying/sightseeing with (male) co-workers and clients. One late night after everyone has left, she finds herself in a cute little cafe in Italy with a senior male colleague; and he says he's in love with her. She had no idea and gave no encouragement to her knowledge. She socializes with all these people frequently. Two weeks later, she finds herself in a public bathroom with his wife telling her that her marriage is in trouble and her husband is distant and asking if she knows if he's having an affair.

Another story is a friend who is in graduate school. She spends a summer doing research with her advisor. It's largely one-on-one. They work together, have meals together, camp out or stay in the same hotel together, and hang out at night around a campfire or sightseeing. He's a new PhD and not much older, but he's married with a young child. This is the primary research for her degree. She finds herself one night in the bar at a professional conference where she's presenting. All the other colleagues have left. He tells her he's in love with her and wishes his circumstances were different. Again, she has no idea what happened.

Both women put in significant work into their career. They don't know what will happen next. They can get blackballed. It's scary. No matter what, it's significantly more a problem for them. They(we) learn that no matter what, we are not one of the guys. We will never be one of the guys. We need to be careful. That is likely male/female. It may be age/generational.

Another thing I've noticed is that my husband and I interpret attention about our attractiveness or sexual innuendo differently. He will tell me about a situation where he feels complimented and flattered. He practically preens like a puffed-up rooster. I put myself in that same situation, and I would feel disrespected or uncomfortable, or even intimidated. I don't feel validated by that type of attention.

There's a quote from an old, old Cary Grant movie, Operation Petticoat, about women being protected by law when they are young and protected by nature when they are about my age. Maybe I'll feel differently soon. I guess I'm still wary, but that's likely leftover vanity.

This is a long way of saying that I personally feel it's about my goals and life experience and morals gained over a lifetime that support achieving my goals. There's a whole other question of why I don't feel empowered like Morbs to lean into my sexuality. I feel powerless or threatened instead. There would be a good case to say that I have likely had "pretty privilege" in my career and elsewhere in life. One of those stories was me. Is that temperament or experience? I can't even begin to define character.

Post affair, I'm probably avoidant in my relationships with women too. AP wasn't a friend, but she was in a peer in my social circle. Now I'm wary with them too. I think that goes beyond good boundaries.

I think what I was trying to get across is that an avoidant person may be more likely to be unhappy. That was under the premise that an avoidant person doesn’t connect as easily , we tend to also not bring up things that we may think of as conflict. For me this led to a lot of resentment that I didn’t even feel particularly of.

Now, what one does with that unhappiness is really due to a lot of other things. I think an avoidant is more likely to have an affair only because they are more likely to be unhappy, but I think there are as many if not avoidant people out there than any other type. So if it’s a common type and they are prone to keep things to themselves then the numbers go up from that.

I worked not in a male predominant industry, but the people that I primarily worked with were men because I was in the executive suite where you often will find more men. I traveled with various men for years and it never even crossed my mind to cross any boundary. I never felt uncomfortable in those situations, or that they were thinking anything either. I was a person who always spoke favorably about my husband, didn’t drink on the trips and always bailed out at the earliest time, usually after dinner.

In fact, it isn’t even in my history to ogle men. I am more of a sapiosexual, and I tend to take a while before physical attraction develops. It may even surprise you to know I not even sure I ever felt a physical attraction to the ap. There wasn’t an aversion really, but affair was not based on not being able to resist an opportunity.

I of course think it was a combination of traits combined and not really just my avoidance. Coping has always been escapism. I don’t think I am generally a person with low morals or integrity, when I look outside of the period of my affair I am generally a caring person who tries to do the right things.

I didn’t have kids at home, I made pretty big money at the time, I think in my case where avoidance came in was I wanted out of being married. I saw it as an albatross around my neck that carried endless responsibilities. In reality, I was my own albatross and my motivations for performing all these things were completely selfish. Outwardly, people including my husband would have said that I might be the most selfless person they know. I only wanted the people around me to be happy. I didn’t realize I was self abandoning, masking and all the things I was doing to reach that point of crisis were so bad for me until I really got sick.

And I avoided and people pleased in the affair too. It wasn’t a solution for anything obviously.

So I am not sure I have an answer for you other than to say, I think avoidance can often lead to unhappiness and sometimes unhappy people have affairs. Sometimes they don’t. It’s something that can’t be boiled down to one trait. And I don’t think all people who do an immoral thing are always immoral at their core. (And I know you aren’t saying that either)

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:13 PM, Wednesday, October 21st]

I do not think many people who have affairs are immoral at their core. In fact, I think most of them are probably exactly the kind of people who would swear up and down that they are not the kind of person who would ever have an affair.

Most if not all avoidant people are very good at compartmentalizing.

That makes a huge difference.

My wife would have sworn up and down that she never wanted to do anything to hurt me or our son. I believe she meant that.

She was not consciously weighing that and deciding the affair was worth the cost. It was not part of the calculus because there really was no calculus.

Once the affair was inside its own secret container, the rest of her life stopped fully entering the equation. Her values, her love for us, the potential consequences, the risk to the family, those things were still real, but they were not being integrated into the decisions she was making inside that container.

"I would never have an affair" is a weaker safeguard than people think for someone that is compartmentalized and avoidant... Most people who eventually have affairs probably believed some version of that about themselves right up until they found themselves inside the affair container where those beliefs no longer governed their behavior.