SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are thinking this to death. Just stop it. Your wife cheats you either live with it or don’t. You have rights that you don’t seem to recognize. You have the right that your spouse behave herself. Has she just never gotten the message? You don’t act this way as a married person, unless both of you went into the marriage with this set up. Reading this it seems like it’s just black-and-white. What you can tolerate and what you can’t.

Insisting on "privacy" is one of the classic tactics in the Cheater’s Handbook.

It’s not laying down the law to tell her how you feel. And for the record, there’s nothing wrong with the feelings you’re describing.

It’s not laying down the law to describe to her exactly what you just posed:

* you don’t think she understands how much her cheating has hurt both you and your marriage;
* you don’t think she understands how much damage her lack of candor and introspection continues to harm both you and your marriage;
* and that her continued lack of boundaries, her self-indulgence, and unwillingness to address it has you concerned about the viability of your marriage.

That’s not laying down the law, that simply laying down how you feel. How you feel ought to be important enough to her to stop telling you that she needs her privacy.

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 1:51 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

The problem isn’t private life versus married life. Her session at the party wasn’t really private was it, nor are her repeated drinking and make-out sessions with her colleague.
The problem is that she has made this behavior the norm, and neither you nor she seem to feel a need to point out that it really isn’t norm.

Waiting for her to address the problem… That’s like waiting for a heroin-addict to use plain logic to decide to quit.

I’m going to sound cross, and that’s because I am. I’m confused, and that pisses me off.
To-date all the incidents you list have involved one common factor: Alcohol. Yet you sound dismissive that it might play a role in her behavior.
You also make it sound like part of being in academia is the expectation of regular drinking sessions where it’s a rule rather than the exception that you make out with your colleague. Sort-of like an occupational hazard or expectation. Sort of like carpenters tend to develop tennis-elbow and it’s just a part of their job…

I gave you some questions to ask her. They were intended to gauge her attitude and if she too saw this as a problem. Like – does she think these regular (and seemingly mandatory) drinking sessions with obligatory make-out sessions are "normal" and/or healthy for the marriage?
In some ways it’s like scolding a child – or maybe a better comparison like sitting a teenager down and asking if skipping school, partying and drinking and failing tests is going to get them to college? It’s pointing out clear bad behavior and asking if they realistically expect a good outcome.

I think you are overanalyzing your situation. The key factor is that you can point out unhealthy behaviors – REPEATED behaviors – and question if she thinks this is normal, good for the marriage, and something you should just accept.

Pogre: But what is a secret? If WW fails to tell me what she had for lunch, that's not because she's trying to hide it from me. If she fails to tell me she had lunch with a random colleague, same again. But if she fails to tell me she went to the pub after work with OM2, that's going to land differently, even if nothing happened. Where to draw the line? This is all new to me. Before, I just trusted her. Now, I feel like I have to formalise something.

Cooley2here: I think previously I was trying to coerce "what I can tolerate" into what she needed, not what I needed. Because I wasn't prepared to countenance leaving her. But it didn't work. Sure, I'm overthinking it. I overthink everything. She underthinks everything. How to square that circle, when I love her and want to be with her forever?

Letmebefrank: It's not her insisting on privacy, it's me. I have previously laid down how I feel to her. But the only items I put into "destructive" rather than "damaging" were outright lies and complete callousness to my face (i.e. what happened with OW can never happen again). Now, I have come to realise that lies of omission (trickle-truthing) are destructive as well. Before, I was too scared of having to follow through on red lines to create any. I'm still scared, but I now realise I have to do so anyway.

Bigger: I understand your frustration, but I am still keen to avoid any resentment from her. It feels like a step too far to insist she quits drinking, when she tells me her attitude has now completely changed, and she did after all reject the advances of the other colleague at our last party. You're right, though, I do need to be more explicit in asking the questions you suggested.

Her drinking isn’t the real issue. If you two are happy with it she can be constantly buzzed for all I care. It’s her ACTIONS when – the common denominator – while drunk that’s the issue.
But then – if asking her not to have affairs might bother her…

I don't blame you for your sarcasm, Bigger, but I think we're quite far past "But then – if asking her not to have affairs might bother her…"

She says nothing like this could ever happen again, and I believe her intention 99% -- I'm just scared of drawing a red line in case she fails to live up to her intention.

I guess my point was you don’t need to draw a red line. Red lines, ultimatums and the like are unwise because they limit your options. But the main thing is, and this gets emphasized a lot on this site, is that she ought to be the one coming up with these boundaries. She needs to be figuring out how to keep you and your M safe. Swearing hand on heart that she’ll never do it again obviously hasn’t been enough for you, so I think what we’re all saying here is, what does SHE propose to do about that?

As for secrets, I suppose they’re kind of like the old definition of pornography - you know it when you see it. In my mind it comes down to intention. If she is refraining from telling you something because she doesn’t want you to know it due to the impact it will have on you or your M, then that’s a secret.

Recommending Codependent No More by Melody Beattie along with individual therapy, but at the very least the book if not therapy.

Also, I don't think Bigger was being sarcastic. That to me read like a pretty honest read of the situation here. You said right above that comment you are "keen to avoid any resentment from her," and the thread so far shows you are essentially paralyzed by codependency from fully expressing your feelings to her.

Pogre: But what is a secret? If WW fails to tell me what she had for lunch, that's not because she's trying to hide it from me. If she fails to tell me she had lunch with a random colleague, same again. But if she fails to tell me she went to the pub after work with OM2, that's going to land differently, even if nothing happened. Where to draw the line? This is all new to me. Before, I just trusted her. Now, I feel like I have to formalise something.

I think the part I italicized above in your response kind of defines it. Not mentioning something mundane about your day isn't really the keeping of a secret. It's about intent. It's about hiding or omitting impactful or harmful information that she knows "won't land right." If she feels that she needs to hide something or keep a secret, you know, aside from a present or a pleasant surprise or something, it's most likely something she shouldn't be doing.

I'm going to give perhaps a softer overall message in this post than I have prior in your thread (which were more 2x4 in nature), and I'm going to relate it back to my own experience. Which is the advice you are generally getting here is based on other posters experience.

The way you post and process information strikes me analytical, nuanced, and circumspect. There is nothing wrong with this sort of mindset, and most likely it has treated you quite well over the years. You have probably avoided many situations where a more rapid emotional reaction might have created more damage than taking it in calmly and trying to execute the actions that would result in the best possible outcome.

It's a pretty good way to go about doing most things. And let me tell you, go visit my first thread. Hell, visit any of my threads for the first year or two after. I'm a bit of a thinker myself. I'm a bit of a waffler myself. I have a hard time setting a hard line and not backing down from it. When we give this advice, it's often what we wish we could have done, and rarely, have second hand observed folks actually executing on their side.

The reality, of course, is that each person working through betrayal is facing a marathon of work and healing to get through to the other side that they likely never prepared for. You are bound to face realizations about your wife and yourself, some of them affair related, some of them not, that you likely have areas of weakness you could work on. Or that perhaps the general patterns of behavior you use simply don't work in the area of infidelity.

There is an assumption about working together. About positive intent of your partner. About many things, where if those assumptions are true, make the analytical, nuanced, and rational process a great tool. But if your assumptions are wrong, it's not necessarily as good a process.

For me, one thing I learned, is that I simply was not communicating the pain I was in. I wanted to have positive interactions to lead to more to create a virtuous cycle of improvement. But that's just not how recovery from betrayal works. If you don't tell your partner you are in pain, or angry, or pick an emotion, they simply won't know. If you are busting your ass internally trying to get over the turmoil, and you don't make it clear that you are struggling, they simply won't know. You are prolonging the process and doing more damage.

It's OK to let it out. It's ok to be hurt, and angry, and to behave as though you are hurt and angry. Because you are.

The reason I still post here, six plus years later, is because I got so much great advice on this board.

You are getting great advice on this board. Take what helps and leave the rest.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:20 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

It's complete anathema to me to lay down any law.

I think this is true, but I also think differently about it than you appear to.

IMO, the person who needs the boundary is you. You are clearly uncomfortable with your W's behavior. That's your problem, not hers. You need to decide/figure out what you will and won't tolerate. I was happy to see the nazi POS emil jannings become a clown in Marlene Dietrich's show (The Blue Angel - Die Blaue Angele). My question is: what role do you want to play in your W's show - and in your own?

You are clearly uncomfortable in your current relationship. Most of us think that's because you don't like being betrayed. Really, though, you need to decide if you think your W betrays you. If so, you need to decide what you will do about your discomfort.

I'm all for ultimata (after all, 'academic' has been used in this thread). My reco is to figure out in your gut what you will accept without compromising your self-respect. Then you need to tell your W what your limit is - and implement the sanctions if she exceeds it.

It's your self-respect that counts, not anyone's but yours. But I spent 8 years in academe, after getting my AB, and I heard too many people speak with contempt (and fear, of course) towards BSes.

But it's your self-talk, not gossip, that hurts. What are your boundaries? What are you willing to do to maintain them? That means having answers to questions that will allow you to nurture - not attack - yourself, questions like: when your W slips off with someone at a party, what will you tell your self? How will those answers enable you to feel about your self?

*****

I didn't want to lay down any law for my W. I loved her for her authenticity and her willingness to break intellectual boundaries. I loved her because she thought freely in her areas of interest.

But I had to protect my own life. When she revealed her A, I realized I was in the position Bigger recommends - I was willing to work for R, but not without her full commitment to our M and, more important, to me.

Setting a boundary is for yourself. Saying, 'I won't share you' is about you. Your W is free to violate her promises. You're free to decide how you will respond - that's 'what 'I won't share you' is. It's not a statement of what your W is permitted to do. It's your freely chosen response for yourself to your W's freely determined actions for herself. (That's a lousy set of sentences ... seems to fit in with today's academic writing.)

You are the prize here. It's difficult to realize that, but it's true.

A few posts earlier you were recommended the book, "co-dependent no more" I will also tell you to get that book today. I really believe it will reveal so many answers to questions for you.

Well, our all-too-brief overlap at home is now over, and WW is away for the next 3 weeks.

We did have a really good conversation though, and I feel like we're making real progress. I think she's finally starting to understand that she isn't really interrogating herself enough to make me feel safe.

Letmebefrank: Part of what has been making this difficult is that I think she's been telling the truth as she understands it, and so getting frustrated with me that I don't take her at her word. And part of it is that I need her to continue being honest with me even in order to get the examples I can then use to help her properly understand herself. For instance, it transpires that she has been going straight from the gym to her work meetings with OM2, i.e. turning up in sports bra and gym shorts. She is thinking, what's the problem, nothing is going to happen. But knowing this, I have successfully challenged her to admit (to me, but primarily to herself) that this contributes to a sexual frisson in which they both have a shared understanding. I know you must all be sceptical that she didn't already realise this, but she told me about it as if it were innocent.

torso1500: My immediate inclination is to resist the "codependent" label, because it doesn't feel like she's very dependent on me, and my response seems like a normal attachment injury. However, it does ring true in that I adjust my boundaries to match her behaviour. I shall read the book; thank you for the recommendation.

Pogre: Another admission she has made since March is that when she first told me she had kissed OM2, it had already happened twice before. She says she thought she told me about all three times, but acknowledges that she probably said something ambiguous like "I kissed him, and we had also flirted, a couple of times before" i.e. telling me a half-truth with plausible deniability. I have now drilled down on this and made her admit that she knew she was allowing a false impression to stand. So we are making progress. But again, I can't do this unless she feels she can tell me the truth further down the line. If she starts to hide things from me permanently, all bets are off.

This0is0Fine: In our most recent conversation I have been much more honest with her about how hurt I am. I even told her that part of my pain is in the realisation that we might not, after all, be together forever. But I am not very good at letting her shame stand for a while. When the guilt consumes her and makes her cry, I will always comfort her. I am at least now trying not to apologise for that pain she is experiencing, though.

sisoon: If you'll pardon the play on themes, to me the distinction seems academic. We are also free to break the law and the state is free to decide how it will respond. This would be "the state's freely chosen response for itself to your freely determined actions for yourself". That said, I do have much better answers than when I first started to post here. If my WW ever slips off with someone at a party, I will tell her she needs to move out. I'm not quite ready to think of myself as the prize, but I know what I can no longer tolerate.

OhItsYou: Thank you for seconding torso1500's recommendation. I shall read the book.

[This message edited by limerickence at 1:19 PM, Monday, May 25th]

I think it's okay for you to comfort her, as long as there is sufficient space in your relationship being made for your feelings-- she must be willing to hear them in their entirety and not put hers above yours. You need to put yours first as well right now, so if it starts to feel like you're carrying both her emotions and yours, it's perfectly okay for you to set hers down and leave her to grapple with them. You should observe her to see whether she's actually experiencing the shame and coming up with a plan for how to deal with it, or just throwing herself a pity party, because there's a huge difference between those things...

My own BH comforted me a great deal in the beginning and there are no words for how grateful I am for his support, but I also promised to get into IC immediately to process the shame, so that I could get through it enough to actually start fixing myself. Of course, however, there are certainly WS out there that will accept their BS's comfort and take it as a sign they are forgiven and don't need to change, and obviously that does nothing for the BS healing or for securing the safety of the marriage. So you can comfort her, but make sure you are still holding her accountable for the infidelity and for the work she needs to do. You can't keep investing your emotional energy into her if she's not willing to do it, as you have to protect you in the long run. And she will respect you more the more you respect yourself.

You can try using phrases that are comforting, but still convey a need for that work to be done, such as "I still love you, and I believe you can change enough to make this marriage safe for me again." Best of luck. We are all rooting for you here.

Thank you GotTheMorbs. I feel like I'm getting better at holding her feet to the fire. I'm more aware now of the pedestal I've been putting her on and we agreed how unproductive it was that I never really got past the stage of hysterical bonding. This morning on her way to the airport she told me that although she has been inclined to avoid these conversations, she is starting to realise that she always ends up feeling better afterwards, which hopefully means that what we're doing is genuinely therapeutic. I think she now sees that there is work to be done in really examining her motivations and that so far I have been the only one doing it. Time will tell whether this all just gets compartmentalised away. She probably won't give it much thought for the next three weeks.

[This message edited by limerickence at 3:02 PM, Monday, May 25th]

Three weeks is a long time

For instance, it transpires that she has been going straight from the gym to her work meetings with OM2, i.e. turning up in sports bra and gym shorts. She is thinking, what's the problem, nothing is going to happen. But knowing this, I have successfully challenged her to admit (to me, but primarily to herself) that this contributes to a sexual frisson in which they both have a shared understanding. I know you must all be sceptical that she didn't already realise this, but she told me about it as if it were innocent.

I’m more understanding of this than you might think. My aunt was a college professor. Quite a few of my friends from law school went into academia rather than private practice. I know the ‘absentminded professor’ type well. They’re capable of deep and sustained analytical thought to the exclusion of all else, and often have a remarkable lack of self-awareness. So I can see it.

On the other hand, showing up to a work meeting in a sweaty sports bra is completely unprofessional, even in a non-corporate setting. One area for further consideration is whether she was, at some level, willfully unaware because she liked the frisson.

On another note, I’m just going to put these quotes together:

I think she's been telling the truth as she understands it, and so getting frustrated with me that I don't take her at her word

I have now drilled down on this and made her admit that she knew she was allowing a false impression to stand

I get it - in her mind, NOW she’s telling the truth. But she’s being impatient with the process of rebuilding trust with you, it seems to me. Part of this rebuilding is trusting you enough to handle the truth so that you can move forward with a common understanding of your shared past.

Anyway, I’m really glad you’re making progress. Maybe over the next three weeks you should send her emails / texts with questions you want her thinking about, items to discuss when she gets back, so that it doesn’t get swept under the rug.

Thank you, Letmebefrank. Yes, she's quite an impatient person in some ways. Which usually translates positively into gumption, but it's been difficult in this case because she doesn't really empathise with my tendency to metabolise as opposed to hers to compartmentalise (the latter being a much speedier process). But I really do think she understands better now. I asked her to think about the threshold between private life and married life while she is away, which I think is probably enough homework for now. And I am hoping -- perhaps beyond hope -- that she will still remember how much it would mean to me for her to be the one to raise the subject upon her return.

[This message edited by limerickence at 10:13 PM, Monday, May 25th]

Where is she going. Whom is she with?