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Sorry sacred soul, I think I was ready for a beating over that post.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:31 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

@hikingout post #131:

Sorry saved soul, I think I was ready for a beating over that post.

You called?

My goal is to protect the OP, and NOT to help him save his marriage. And to that note, saving the OP may mean ATTEMPTING TO BE TALKING HIM OUT OF R.

It is clear to me that the OP is under the spell of the Reconciliation-Industrial Complex--or maybe I should call it--the Remain-In-Chains Consortium. He has been browbeat In ALL DIRECTIONS--including even his own family!--that duty calls him to stay in this marriage to WW, nevermind her cheating (and besides that he is to blame for much of it anyway) and that if it means that he needs to set aside his own needs, then that means he needs to set aside his own needs. THAT is going to get a VERY strong reaction from me, and from a lot of other men on here. Sorry not sorry.

His therapist is accredited from The University Of Rugschaweeping. That is extremely clear to me and that school should be put out of business stat!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:09 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

Oh, FFS. This again.

No one here is saying that the OP should stay in an unhealthy marriage, but you sure are adamant about R not being advisable for men in any circumstance. WE GET IT.

I personally don't think MC is appropriate for 5BD right now and my advice would be to stop MC and seek IC, but if MC is what he's doing, and R is what he (currently) wants, there could be some valuable information in his reaction to the assignments, including rejecting the assignment or deciding that R is a bad idea.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:19 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

I agree, sacred soul.

Okay, I will say this for the record:

Honestly, it boils down to this is why you don’t bring your ws here.He is already censoring himself, as evidenced by not sharing what he found. I think that wouldn’t have been a thing before. He could get an agreement that she will stay away from the site to protect her own healing but I doubt he trusts that enough to be as forthcoming as he would have been before.

So in essence we are arguing that he comes and gets support from a site he can not right now seem to allow himself to be forthcoming on. This is partially why I recommend he IM with some of you. Reach out to him, he has your support.

I am very much in blue drops corner. I always have been. I see this as the therapist assigned him to plan a date that he willingly agreed to and that likely at the time was not such a tragic ask given they do still do things together including sex. Regardless of the drama, they still both claim to enjoy each others company. The therapist couldn’t know that there were going to be more discoveries.

When that happened, he should have decided not to execute the date. That doesn’t fall on the therapist or his wife, it speaks to his own lack of boundaries. That is not to shame him, I can readily understand how easily that happens. But until he learns to set them, he is contributing to his own trauma at this point. I gave him a bit of a speech about boundaries around the time he was last here. Many of you have also warned him against this, explaining that he isn’t invincible the way he thinks he is.

For now, if it were me, and I wanted to reconcile and see if my spouse could heal, modifying my support system would not be someone putting upon me. He is fully choosing to go to MC and have this mediated.

Well guess what? In the history of reconciliations never have I seen one that what the ws needs and what the bs needs doesn’t at some point come into a big conflict with one another. It’s inevitable. This occurred countless times in my two separate reconciliation processes. It then becomes a compromise over who needs what more and how to work through that time frame.

The hope I hold onto is maybe this process will lead more towards that needed detachment from an outcome and shift towards a focus on themselves. We have not been able to get him there.

I agree with those who think they should be doing IC only. I actually think they should not even be working at the marriage at this point but fully invested in themselves. I have said this countless times to him, many of you have said it.

What are we left with? We are left with someone who has hired this specialist to help them through this process, and who is stubborn in his process. So, what I am doing is advocating for him to follow that process. He can make a determination about it when he is ready. But that means if the therapist says that it’s needed that his wife doesn’t feel like he is talking badly about her with others, then try it. (His wife’s perception, not mine) Really give this a shot and either it will work, or more than likely he will learn why what he is doing isn’t working for him.

We aren’t making the progress here that some of you seem to think we are. If his goal is to get answers then she will need to feel somewhat safe to do so. That’s not going to happen if he is forthcoming here. He knows it too, he is restraining himself for that reason.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:47 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

SS33 has a tag line that gets to what I hope you pay attention to. I have a very good friend who is a therapist. Almost every one of their clients has a narcissist as a parent. I am not writing about Hollywood’s version. A true narcissist is so dangerous to a child’s sense of self worth that they often pay for it for the rest of their lives. The damage goes into their souls. They often marry someone very much like the offending parent.
You NEED intense EMDR. Find an expert in it. It will give you clarity about what you brought with you from childhood. Then intense talk therapy to help you learn to say no. A very loud NO. It will save you so much grief the day you take charge of your life.

This^^^

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the therapist asking HIM to plan a date. Therapist should read the room and should have told HER to get busy showing 5bd how much she want to stay married to him.

It seems most are advocating IC as opposed to MC. Personally, I think neither of those are what the data has shown is the best option if their intention is recovery of the marriage. As I often reference Jake Porters work....he promotes "Couples Centered Recovery". Now this is not standard MC...it is a betrayal trauma informed model that uses the wounds of the relationship as the catalyst for individual AND relationship growth.

Porter put it this way in short and I am grossly paraphrasing....

"When people who experience Betryal trauma seek out IC, as they work through that process, they do in fact grow and heal... individually. But this lead to each of the NOT COMING AWAY with what he calls "A Common Story". Then when the two individuals try to make the relationship work....very often they eventually split up. But when they recover as a Couple using his model, they leverage all the challenges they face that arise out of the wounds of the relationship, and grow and heal both individually and as a couple....and when they come out of it ...the have a COMMON STORY....which greatly improves chances of long term success of the marriage"

Again....I put quotes there....but that was really my recollection of what he said...which I think is pretty close.

I really think the problem with 5BDPs wife is that she has yet to learn to deal with shame properly. She needs to realize what she did does not have to define her...and in essence, she can see what she did like everyone else sees it ...it was ugly. But....the Lord has brought her to the light...or is in process of still doing so....and she can rejoice and understand....THAT IS NO LONGER HER. That "her" is dead in Christ. She has to learn it will be a good thing to hate more and more what she did.

And the healing will come (again a Jake Porter method) by leveraging those emotions and turning them into a POSITIVE by MAKING AMENDS. As she learns to hold space for 5BDPs emotions and makes amends...they BOTH will heal.

So..my suggested action item....that they pay for "Daring Ventures All Access Library" and listen to all Porters Webinars together. It will help them tremendously. And it is only like $32 per month.

With the understanding she will get there, I suspect she would not spiral much anymore. Just a hunch.

THAT IS NO LONGER HER

As a person who still deeply values the Christian ethic of redemption, I don’t think it is our place to proclaim inner transformation for anyone, much less someone who is not showing clear fruit of it, as I understand OP’s words.

No amount of believing the best of another person makes it true. It doesn’t manifest it, doesn’t speak it into existence. If she won’t treat OP with care and tenderness, he will only harm himself by giving her continued access. He is clearly willing, so if they end up with a non-common story of healing, it’s clear to me who will be responsible for that.

InkHulk....I absolutely agree with you. My writing may not have conveyed what was in my mind. The text was "assuming" she in fact was truly repentant and changed, but was not yet able to fully lay hold of the truth that her past actions were dealt with in Christ.

I was not intending to proclaim it has been so for certain. If in reality she is still purposely lying, or still secretly betraying then certainly....she has the need to flee to Christ and be washed in the "fountain for sin and uncleanness".

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 5:41 AM, Thursday, April 17th]

I have to say it, @hikingout, your posts seem to me to be filled with so much consideration of the different angles, that I myself have a tough time figuring out what you are actually advocating.

Anyway, I'm not being a stuck whistle here. It really feels to me that at this point the OP's attempts to help his WW and his marriage, are coming at too much self-sacrifice. Which is why I am advocating seriously considering divorce for him.

I agree wise old soul- that my posts probably do seem all over the place, so mark that down. I don’t think some people understand what I am saying because there is actually a specific angle I have on this situation. I hadn’t intended to be direct about it, but I will be. Cooley said it all way more directly and with the added recommendations for EMDR which I think is dead on, that’s why I pointed it out.

There needs to be more accountability here from 5 blue drops in not protecting himself from more pain in this situation. Some are over here oohhhhing and ahhhing "well I can’t believe the therapist had you have a date that creates so much pain." "Oh his wife is taking advantage" he hired the therpist, he agreed to the date (and we have no context on that assignment or any information on any she has been given) and he still did the thing after finding more damaging information. That’s not a normal or genuine response. Why did he put himself through it? Because in his mind he believes being a martyr and sacrifice means love. I get it, there was a time I believed it too and you would not have ever talked me out of it. It took a therapeutic process for me to catch on.

Blue drops for probably entirely valid reasons from his history keeps moving forward uncommitted to anything that will protect himself from more pain. Just proclamations of "I can handle it, I am built different."

That sounds like I am frustrated or victim blaming, I am not. The fear of doing that was why I was so slow to post a response to his update. I don’t think at this point he can help it. I agree with bluer than blue and Cooley this is likely because if the way he grew up. All I was saying in my other posts is we are not convincing him at all to protect himself. He doesn’t have that within him. He gets mad, upset, hurt, but nothing changes. This is also not lost in his wife, this has been their dynamic since back when this all started.

It may take this therapist some time to catch on to the dynamics but I think it’s great there are eyes on the ground and some possibility of intervention we at this site are unable to even begin to touch. I think one can see the dynamics at play here from space so I don’t think it’s a false hope the therapist will tune into that shortly. I don’t fault them for working with what they have been presented with so far.

If he stops now he will only continue to languish.

So what I am trying to say is for him to commit to this process because this may be the only way he can arrive at forming these boundaries he doesn’t have. There is also an off chance it may lead to having his goals realized but I don’t see that arriving anytime soon. There is too much work yet ahead, if it happens at all.

When I said all the stuff about his wife in that first post where I said commit to the process, it because this is what he is thinking about. This is where he is. These are his goals. All I was doing was mirroring his thoughts. To help him, I am supporting him where he is. He has specific goals that he is no more in control of than whether the sun rises tomorrow. But if he is going to pursue them then that maybe what it takes to get him on some course for himself.

I am not saying I wouldn’t support a reconciliation with someone who no longer gaslights, darvos, belittles him. If she can be that, I support whatever they decide to do together. I do not think she is transformed yet, I think she has a lot of work to do. In fact never has she even claimed otherwise. She seems to at least acknowledge it.

I am not going to support him half way doing a process giving him loopholes to continue to allow himself to string this out. He brought her here, he knew he may not feel comfortable talking about her the same way as if she hadn’t been here, and that was a risk. Now the goals he has and that risk have collided.

So I am merely aligning him with his stated goal. If he truly wants to reconcile (which right now he says he does) then I think her coming and reading all this is not going to make her feel safe or loved. And theoretically if the goal is reconciling then that is his end of the stick to deliver on. I am not going to blame everyone else in his life for that. These are the results of his decisions.

The truth is I think blue drops and his wife need more support than what we can give him here. We can supplement, and support. But I for one am glad someone has eyes on them. And at this point I think that is more important than whether he can only half way use this forum. She is far too sensitive for this not to keep rocking a boat that will keep him distracted in the chaos, just like he is distracted by condoms and whatever else. Take all the distractions d away and commit to a process.

And blue drops, I hope you can understand that this is coming from a place of concern and care for you. You are making the decisions that are making all this possible. You want to have your process then you have to commit to it. You say you want her to heal and to get brave and tell the truth, well, her seeing what we are all saying here holds her down. That’s just facts. It definitely would have been for Me. I want there to be no excuses left. Maybe it will even work, I don’t rule anything out.

We are all here, IM any of us. I am hopeful some people have already reached out to you. This comes off tougher than I wanted to be because I fully understand that you are somewhere in pain and that makes logic sometimes tough. I am not insensitive to your plight. Stay with the therpist and trust the process until the day comes you are ready to set a new boundary. I think this process is going to take you to a line in the sand sooner than later.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:26 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

T/j. I am going to support HikingOut. She has laid her story out so that her mistakes, recovery and becoming a bs is clear. I think she hopes that those ws who truly put in the work can have a marriage that works. She has walked both sides of the street.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 7:24 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

I appreciate those of you who are attempting to save me the pain and hurt of trying to make someone be something they arent.

Allow me to save you the same pain.

Im not letting the issue go; and Im not gravitating towards D. Its my marriage and my life, and Im in the pilot seat. Im not going to make any decisions I cant live with. Im stubborn and shot out, yes. Im going through my version of the process. And I reserve the right to adopt whatever position I ultimately do, whenever I do.

We are seeing an infidelity specialist. The assignments given before our dating anniversary, in addition for BOTH of us to plan to make it nice and nontraumatic, were for me to produce a list of questions relating to Ww’s expanded timeline and provide them. I was mired in frustration with both tasks after my discoveries.

Essentially, I accessed Ww’s google account and was able to get her google search history. All of it. The intentionality of everything is Plainly laid out. Rather than go through all of it, I will merely post the list of questions I asked her, and the answers I recieved.

Questions & Answers

1.When did you start carrying condoms around? Why?
-back in 2014, in case I ever gave in to J’s push to go all the way (which I did not)

2.What places were you making sure you had them at?
-at work

3.Who did you have in mind for them to be used with?
-J

4.When you took last years polygraph and you answered the question, "are you intentionally omitting anything from your disclosure letter?", did you know you had been taking condoms from our home in 2014 and did not put that in?

-I did not think about it.

5.In the timeline you produced, you admitted to sending J bikini pictures on May 1. When I was distracted with (friend) over at our house, you sent him a photo of your breasts. When you told me that, you said you only did that once. But you were using Snapchat for cheating per your may 4th google searching. How often were you sending Jonathan pictures? What pictures did he send you back? When did that start? And why was it omitted from your prior disclosure letter?
-I don’t remember specifically how often. I only remember those two instances (breasts and bikini, not sure how many times bikini pictures)
-I only remember him sending me the picture of his briefs that one time when I sent the one of my breasts.
-I only remember him sending me back that one once.
-I believe him sending me pictures started and ended when (friend) was over.
-I didn’t think about it until I saw the text about the furniture being out which jogged my memory. Also, I was thinking you meant explicitly nudes.

6.At what point were you cognitively aware you were tempted to cheat?
-I believe March 2014

7.At what point were you aware that you had decided to?
-April 2014

8.April 2 is noted as the earliest point in the timeline with J, making out. Is that the first time?
-I believe so.

9.In early April, you began to google how to be sexy, how to be a hot girl, cosmetics, how to be dominant. By April 16, you googled sex and attachment. On April 17, you googled birth control related searches 10 times. On April, 25, you googled how to stay faithful, office romance, and causes of infidelity. On the 26th, you googled work boyfriend and having problems staying faithful. April 29, you googled characteristics of cheaters, snapchat, tempted to cheat on boyfriend at work. By may 3, you were googling "causes boredom relationship", and infatuation. On may 4th, "snapchat and cheating", visiting an article "10 ways techology betrays cheaters". Did you have sex with J in April?
-No, I did not have PIV or oral sex with him or anyone else since you and I started dating.

10.At the boat incident, may 20, 2014, you admit to making out with J at the cars. Did B and J arrive separately or together? Did B see the kissing? Did you drink on the boat? Did anything happen with B?
-I don’t know if they arrived separately or together. B was already at the dock or on the boat when J came to meet me at my car. I was not aware of him seeing us kissing. I think I probably had a bud light or two but wouldn’t have wanted to have a lot because I knew I had to drive and didn’t know how much time I’d have to sober up. Nothing happened with B that day; Only the fingering in the car on night of the nightclub incident.

11.You have said that the cheating started with P and began happening with J later, after confiding in him. The texts and search history strongly imply a concurrent evolution of both situations, even implying flirtation and boundary crossing happened with J first. Do you even know which is true? When you answered the polygraph question last year, "Is any part of your disclosure letter intentionally untrue?", did you mean to, know you might be, or even suspect you were lying?
-I think flirtation and boundary crossing (i.e. butt smacking, flirting) happened first with J but fingering happened first with P.
-No, I really thought I told you everything I could think of and tried to remember it all and wanted to be completely honest.

12.After the boat incident, I was shamed at the bar by you, J and B for not trusting you all. How did everyone get on board with the gaslighting? Was there a discussion?
-I told them that if you found out, you’d kill them because I wanted them to feel threatened so they wouldn’t talk.

13.Did J ever coach you on deceiving me? Or were you the driver of the initiative? What discussions were had? Why was deception chosen?
-I don’t believe he coached me. I believe I was the driver. I didn’t want you to find out because I didn’t want to lose you.

14.You began to google polyamory. On may 28, B, J, and you cooperated to "give J a place to stay for the night". I believe that was a scripted hail mary to allow your already started relationship with him to happen with my blessing. J was angry when I said he couldnt stay with us. Was your intention for us to have a threesome? If you were willing to do that, why would I believe you werent already having sex with him or planning to?
-I believe my intention was for us to have a threesome.
-because it was going to be the in, it would be you giving the "green light"

15.On May 31, I saw you not read a text from J at the bar in front of me with him sitting right there. Those texts were deleted later that evening. I became upset and you claimed to be a victim of unwanted pursuit, deleting the texts so I would not hate him. Why did you not stop then?
-because I wanted to keep doing what I was doing at the time and have it both ways.

16.When is the last time you deleted information related to the cheating? What was it? Please provide a list of things you deleted, hid, lied about to keep me in the dark.
-I believe back in 2014.
-I deleted texts, Snapchat, photos, and I believe emails about Snapchat.

17.In 2016, you googled birth control once. In 2015, you googled birth control once, specifically plan B. In 2014, you googled birth control 18 times, and visited 40 links about birth control. You googled gildess 19 times, visiting a large number of links. Did you ever take any? Your interest in birth control in 2014 relative to other years is noticeably outsized compared to any other years, and began in January. Was the cheating the reason?
-no
-cheating was the reason I looked into it. I was on the fence about it/considering it but couldn’t convince myself that it was safe enough/foolproof enough. I was still paranoid it wouldn’t be enough and something could go wrong

18.Did any tuesdays other than the boat incident contain incidences of cheating?
-no they did not (unless there was a tournament on a Tuesday then I cannot be sure but not outside of work, no)

19.Were any of these people you were cheating on me with inside one of our homes, ever, without me present? If they never were, can you give me anything other than your assurance to show me?
-no, absolutely not
-I wish I could. I’m not sure how to do that

20.On July 6, you gave P much of your attention because it was his birthday. He showed you his penis. You said (boss) sent you home early because you were visibly trashed. What happened that day?
-I just remember drinking a lot and him wanting me to come see him more often than usual and me being stressed out about getting around to the other golfers in time

21.On August 7, you drove me down to work and picked me up in the late afternoon. You googled futon cover at 2:26. The futon cover is conspicuously stained with semen, though I cant say whose. You were off work that day, and did not see your mother. Did you use that opportunity to cheat?
-no, I promise I did not

22.On August 8, J got a pierced hole in his tire sidewall. You and I went out to try and patch it and help him. A day or so later, you told me that he was touching your butt, and you asked him if he felt bad. You told me he said, "I almost do". What actually happened in that interaction?
-I believe It’s possible that he wasn’t just "smacking my butt" and we were making out/he was fingering me.

23.On August 12, a tuesday, you were off and I was at work. Did you cheat on that day?
-no I did not.

24.On August 25, a monday, I worked late. You drove to the club when J was alone there. Whose idea was it? You are the one who knew I was out late. Did it go further than you told me?
-I believe it was his idea but I could have I told him you’d be working late. I really don’t remember.
-no, it did not go further than that

25.On september 13, you called me from work, "its nothing major". You said that P had been seen being handsy on the course with you. I begged you to let me make an issue of it, and you said no. What was he doing when you were seen? Who saw? What did (boss) say? Why did mrs P start coming around?
-I believe he was seen fingering me
-the cart guys saw
-I think (boss) asked me if I was ok, if there was anything I needed to tell him
-In retrospect, I think she wanted to make her presence known and either see for herself or put a stop to it. At the time, Mr. P told me that she’d suddenly taken an interest in being more social and she’d always been such a shy person so he acted surprised.

26.Why were you taken off bev cart shifts? Was it the drinking, J at the cart barn, or P? Or all of it? There MUST have been a conversation of some kind.
-I assume it was all of the above. I was never explicitly told this. If anything, it was just was I said about how (boss) used to tell me to pour lighter, less top shelf, he’d tease me, "have you been nipping again?" And what I told you about him not wanting to put me down at the sports club with J, and when I told you he asked me if I was "ok" in what I assumed was reference to Mr P.

27.September 15, the Colt Ford incident. I had a bad day, and you begged me to let you go. We agreed on you going with (mutual friends) and calling me the minute things went off plan. Why didnt you do what you agreed to do, that I made clear to you, again and over again?
-because I wanted to stay at the concert and I let them drag me away, I didn’t stop them.

28.Why did you leave out that you were with B and J in your texts to me? You only mentioned K.
-because for some reason I thought if K fingered me that would be acceptable to you since you knew I wasn’t a lesbian but I was afraid if you knew that B did, it would be some kind of tipping point

29.You mentioned that K "tried" to finger you in the car. Am I to believe you sent me that text after leaving B and J’s? While K was around?
-I don’t know. I believe it’s possible it happened when she was driving.

30.You now say that you were fingered by B and K while J drove. You were wearing a thigh length dress and underwear. How did you make yourself accessible to be fingered?
-I just let it happen. I didn’t stop it like I should have.

31.What happened in the entirety of the car ride?
-they both fingered me in the back seat. I was in the middle of them.

32.When you arrived at B and J’s, you say you went to the bathroom, walked out and screamed when the lights were off. Why? If you and J were in a fling, you had been fingered by his friends on the way there, had been drinking, and you were taking every opportunity to be with him when I wasnt there, what could be so shocking?
-I notice when things are different, when they don’t seem right, when they seem "off." To me, the fact that the lights were on when I went in the bathroom and off when I came out of it scared the living daylights out of me.
-also whenever I began to feel like the situation was out of my control and I realized I was possibly unsafe that scared me

33.Can you give me anything more than your assurance that your story is the full extent of the truth?
-I don’t know how I could do that

34.What do you think of K and yourself getting sick in your reproductive parts at the same time after a shared sexual experience, within the incubation of multiple common STIs?
-I think it’s nasty to have two different peoples’ fingers in your vagina at the same time and it could certainly irritate the crap out of it and I believe some could be spread via fingering

35.Were you at all worried about passing it to me?
-I did not realize STIs could be spread via fingering. I thought I had a UTI or yeast infection.

36.When I picked you up that evening, you were unmoved by the situation you put me in. I asked you "what if the situation was reversed?" And you laughed and said, " wouldn’t happen, I wouldve never let you go. And its not like I fucked somebody!". Is that still funny to you?
-no, it is not. I am ashamed.

37.You were out of control. Drinking at work, screwing around with multiple coworkers and customers. You took me around them and shrugged as you watched them treat me with ridicule and contempt. You couldnt keep me from finding out, you couldnt keep your boss from finding out, even though you googled "how to be faithful" you didnt stop yourself for almost a year. How can you ask me to believe you had the impulse control of drawing a line at fingering when you couldnt even tell a girl no? Even though you were carrying condoms? Googling birth control? Making out with J with your shorts down? Can you provide anything more than your assurance to support this claim? Would you believe another woman making the same claim?
-to me, in my head, it was a line that I made. I thought if I didn’t go past that point, it wasn’t "technically cheating" and everything would be ok. I didn’t think I was risking STIs; I thought I wouldn’t have to worry about pregnancy. I didn’t want to put us in a situation and not know who the dad was.
-I don’t know how I could provide anything more.
-I don’t know if I would believe another woman making that same claim.

38.How much money did you receive from P in total? Will you pay mrs P that amount, and give her a letter explaining how you got it and why you are sorry?
-I don’t know, probably 100s or 1000s
-I could but I wouldn’t want to hurt her more by making her feel awkward, reminding her of a painful time in her life and embarrassing her.

39.Did you achieve higher sexual yearning from cheating than from me? Your google searches seem to indicate surprise at being "horny all the time". Was the dishonesty necessary for the thrill, considering I offered you an arrangement where you could do things like this as long as you involved me?
-at the time, I thought the situation just happened to be at work, and you weren’t at work with me.
-In retrospect, I think that it was like how drinking is only fun until you turn 21 because you feel like you’re getting away with something; it’s like an adrenaline rush.
-to me, it also made it more exciting that we never went all the way; that kept me wanting and prevented it from getting stale

40.Does our relationship bore you, as you queried on google? Were these men more exciting to you than me?
-no our relationship does not bore me
-they were something new, different, a dopamine rush

41.How can I know you ever stopped when you say?
-I don’t know. I wish I could think of a way. I personally think the texts are a pretty good indicator.

42.Was it truly an office romance? Did you desire to be swept off your feet and leave me?
-it was a work boyfriend
-I had no desire to leave you

43.I cant help but notice the earliest instances with J happened right alongside our dating anniversary. How do you think that makes me feel? How does it make you feel? How special should it be to me, in retrospect?
-I noticed that too
-it must’ve made you feel awful, rejected
-it made me feel really sad when I noticed that
-I understand if it doesn’t feel special to you but I hope that somehow it can. It is special to me.

Anyways. As soon as new information makes old denials impossible, she just seamlessly incorporates what is now known into the story. At this point the narrative that she had some lines and boundaries that prevented anything from going further is total swiss cheese.

After we reviewed all this with the specialist, she wanted to increase the frequency of our meetings.

I finally found records to substantiate J and Bs address. it was a big missing piece that I needed for a long time. I have a pretty good idea what happened in the nightclub incident as a result, because my ability to analyze travel timeframes is hardened. It most likely wasnt how it was represented to me, all these years. Im sure thats shocking.

This was painful to read. There isn’t much to say except I am sorry you are still going through this.

What strikes me in reading that was how the answers were so succinct and devoid of emotion and elaboration. I got the same thing. And while I understand that there were over 40 questions and she wasn’t going to write a novel for each, the overall tone of answering doesn’t seem in line with trying to repair an intimate relationship.

I work in a regulated field, subject to audits. We are trained to answer an auditors question truthfully but very precisely, and not to meander or chit chat with them, as that often gives them info on where to ask the next question. Frankly that strikes me as very human, that we give each other hints on how to come to mutual understanding. But when one is put in the inquisitor role and the one being questioned does not have the goal of complete and total transparency, this is what it looks like. Short answers. Nothing to follow up on.

You’ve already found inconsistencies all over her story, if not outright lies. You seem to be looking for a smoking gun about penetrative sex. Does it matter? If she confessed it tomorrow, would it be your deal breaker or would it just be a new pain to add to the collection? You have all the other horrors of betrayal clearly before you, and an evasive wife who seems intent on burying it if at all possible. Until she fundamentally shifts her posture to being completely and totally vulnerable with you, you won’t believe that there isn’t more and more and more hidden away. It’s not the facts of the case that you need to laser focus in on. If you are going to stay focused on the relationship instead of yourself (which I don’t recommend) then you only need to watch her attitude. It shouldn’t feel like you having to pry details out of her. It should instead feel like she is making herself known to you by choice, with detail and motive and remorse all blended in.

I agree with Inkhulk, with the caveat that this was 14 years ago, which to me may account for the succinct answers and remembering some things after they have been dug up. I have to say that my affair started 8 years ago this week, some of what I may have looked up on Google and dates and some things I may have thought or said would be completely lost to me unless they were part of a larger theme.

I am not saying you have the truth but would be interested in understanding the expectations. I want to reiterate I believe you are entitled to the full and absolute truth. Like ink, I just do not feel it’s ever going to be discernible to you if you have it or not.

When I read through this, personally I had a hard time feeling like there was big new evidence. Perhaps maybe taking more accountability over driving the secrecy and hoping to have a threesome because she seemingly didn’t want to consummate this affair without your blessing? Are these the new parts?

I am not minimizing this at all. I just am trying to understand what is new material here to you?

In terms of the PIV, you have said that isn’t a dealbreaker in the past, that you just want the truth. Does any part of you believe there wasn’t PIV? Would anything convince you of it? I feel like I remember you said the AP wasn’t open to talking with you?

How have you felt about the therapist so far, and are you learning anything in there or in IC about navigating this situation in a way that you can still do whatever process you need but perhaps find better ways to protect yourself? For example, like what you should do when she rages? There are things she is accountable for in this process, and things you are accountable in this process, has any of that been laid out? I truly encourage you to talk with you IC on ways to navigate that. Love is not sacrifice or doing things that continually harm your mental health. You need to have some new tools in your toolbox.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:20 PM, Friday, April 18th]

You are in the pilot seat of a plane that's out of gas, had its wings shot off, and the navigation system is completely faulty... but for whatever reason, you still think you're in control and aren't going to crash.

Good luck, BlueDrops. You'll need it.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:32 PM, Friday, April 18th]

I have to say it, @hikingout, your posts seem to me to be filled with so much consideration of the different angles, that I myself have a tough time figuring out what you are actually advocating.

The fact is: in most cases there ARE many angles that have to be considered in order to figure out the best course of action.

5bd knows he has to run his own life. Bringing up the multitude of possibilities that may be operating, as hiking does, is very helpful, IMO.

Certain things stand out in 5bd's posts, but I think they all point to working on himself as his best bet. I don't think anyone here knows enough to advocate D or R as 5bd's best for him. (Of course, one could argue that's MY one size fits all. But that one size DOES fit all. )

5db, What does that detailed Q & A say to you? What do you feel about it? What do you think about those feelings?

My thoughts: I think it's highly unusual to have memories that detailed for 11 years. My guess is that you're doing a job on yourself about what your W's actions say about you. If you want to change that, you have to change yourself - but my guess could be wrong. Odds are, IMO, whatever is going on inside you, IC is your way to a better life. No matter what, I think you're trying to deal with some sort of hole within you - and your W can't fill that in. You can't fill the hole from the outside; you have to fill it up yourself.

Personally, I'd look for a new MC. MC can help deal with infidelity - if the infidelity is dealt with head on and if the MC knows that the WS is responsible for themself. This MC may have a clue, but I don't think they know what to do with it. That's JMO.

Agree with everything sisson just said, except that the therapist they are using has only met with them like 2-3 times. I don’t think there is enough data yet. Sometimes it’s several sessions just trying to get the lay of the land with some pretty generic assignments. It’s an infidelity specialist which still may not mean anything, but typically we have seen members who used one have better results than some report.