SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I say tell your CW to let go of the idea of apologizing to your ex. It won't make a but of difference in how your ex feels about any of this.

My H's AP apologized to me. It meant nothing. She's obviously a liar. She mostl ikely did it to try to keep me drom telling her H about everything.

Your CW doesn't need to be in any part of your ex's life.

I agree with CP5Nuts that the apology is a bad idea. It's like apologizing to someone for stealing their necklace while you're wearing it. Also, the apology would be insincere and your ex would see right through it. You might regret the affect the affair had on your kids and how it complicated your divorce, but I think if you and your wife are being honest, you think your ex deserved it and the ends justified the means.

BluerThanBlue,

It is certainly a possibility that I am underestimating her progress with healing and her self-control. I hope that I am just catastrophizing and everything will be fine.

Your ex made your life a living hell... but you didn't leave her until your current wife came along to rescue you. Then you get together with your wife and claim that she pressured you into all these major decisions in your relationship--blending families, moving in together, having kids--at a pace that didn't make you comfortable and you didn't feel was appropriate for your children, but you went along with it anyway. And then, of course, she cheated on you. From where I'm sitting, it seems like you traded one flavor of selfish and self-centered for another.

I don’t see myself as helpless anymore. I mentioned earlier that CW has helped me develop the ability to say no, hold boundaries, express dissent, etc. I feel proud of the progress I made.

I didn’t know that relationships could be any different before I met CW. I thought about divorce before then but didn’t think it would be worth it to break up my family and losing half the marital assets if it meant managing as a single parent or entering into another relationship like the one I already had. CW didn’t exactly "rescue" me, as like you said, I could have left XW sooner. It’s more like she opened my eyes to what could change. I would not say she pressured me into anything, because again, I could have said "no" to living together and having a baby. She knew what she wanted in life and she had a timeline in mind, and she was honest about needing to move on if I wasn’t able to fit into it. As I said, I was afraid of losing her, and I was used to being steamrolled, so I acquiesced when I shouldn’t have. She agrees that I shouldn’t have as well.

I know it was selfish of us to force integration, but I also know it’s very hard to walk away from someone you love enough to actually want to build and spend your life with. I don’t think CW was mature enough back then to understand what she was really asking me to do or the impact it would have on the girls, as she grew up with a stepparent for the only father figure she knew and figured it would be like that. But she understands now, especially being a mother herself, and she expresses that she wishes we did things differently. I’ve already detailed how our reconciliation journey is going and I think that speaks for itself with regard to her changing into the kind of partner and person she wants to be. That isn’t something my first wife ever seemed interested in doing.

I think the "stolen necklace" analogy above is apt. You and your CW aren't sorry that you ended your first marriage so that you could be together. It's not going to make your ex feel any better if CW tells her, "Hey, if I had to do it over again, I would have waited until after he left you," which is the closest to an authentic apology that she could really get.

Your ex is going to hate your CW until the end of time. She has excellent reasons for hating her. Those are the unmendable consequences of the choices you and CW made. It's best to just accept that.

That being said, I do not subscribe to the belief that all marriages destroyed by infidelity were good marriages. I accept that your ex may be a selfish, emotionally abusive person whose presence in your life was a wretched mistake. You're still not going to get any traction with me that she's in the wrong if she makes things as uncomfortable as possible for your current wife. Her anger is appropriate, however unfortunate.

You're still not going to get any traction with me that she's in the wrong if she makes things as uncomfortable as possible for your current wife. Her anger is appropriate, however unfortunate.

I don’t disagree with you. I doubt CW would disagree either, and as a result she’d likely be understanding and relatively unruffled. She’s inclined towards de-escalation. That would still be a good outcome as long as we don’t draw attention to ourselves that would lead to embarrassment for D.

If I were in your shoes, I would reach out to your daughter and ask if your wife was included as a courtesy invitation or if it's really important to her that you all attend. It sounds like she's pretty close with her new stepdad's family (however uncomfortable that makes you because of the drinking). She might feel like she has to include your wife because her mother's fiance is invited.

Ask DD, "Honestly, what's your ideal scenario here? CW would love to come support you, but we want the evening to be about you and not any other tension that might arise from her presence." Then follow her response. If she says she doesn't really know, then I recommend that CW stay home. The only way she belongs at an event with your ex is if it's an enthusiastic request from DD.

It’s pretty clear at this point that you don’t care if your ex is upset that your wife is there so long as she doesn’t make a scene.

So how about asking your daughter if her mom knows that you both will be there and if she’s expressed any discomfort with the idea?

I doubt that she would conceal her true feelings to your daughter only to unload on you and your wife in public.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:51 PM, Thursday, February 5th]

I spoke with D last night, and while she didn't give any details about what her mother's response has been so far, she did say she was nervous about the "very awkward" seating arrangements. I belive what is happening that evening is that each senior's parent is meant to walk them to the stage to be presented to the audience before taking their seats, so they have families sitting together to ease that process. There are still a few seats left on the second floor of the auditorium, so I'm going to purchase tickets for those and have CW and my youngest sit there, and go to sit with them after the intermission. She and XW will probably have an encounter when we go to see D after the show, but at least there is greater ease for either of them exiting, if necessary at that point.

[This message edited by darkdustythoughts at 6:34 PM, Friday, February 6th]

I think this is a very good solution.

That sounds like a good plan.

That does sound positive, and I'm glad to hear that you have spoken to your daughter.

Overall, I understand that you don't care about how your XW feels in the situation. Why would either of you care about the other in the situation? If I understand correctly about the invitation, you feel that you have been slighted and put in second place with all the custody and divorce arrangements with respect to the children. Therefore, the invitation is given by D to you and CW, and you think it would be backsliding for either of you to refuse it for any reason? I can understand that and not approaching your XW. Of course, you can't control XW's behavior.

I am curious about your relationship with your daughters. Are you curious about their feelings on the past and the future they want with you and both families? You seem to avoid talking to them. I can't imagine trying for a child or having a pregnancy and not talking to my children about that beforehand and having them find out through finding an ultrasound photo several months into the pregnancy. I would feel hurt if my teen/young adult would not talk to me if they were in an analogous situation. I want a different type of relationship with my children.

I'm also curious whether your daughters told you that they don't want to be at your house because you insist on no alcohol, or whether that's an assumption you have made. Or if they tell you their feelings, and you assume it's your XW's influence.

Overall, do you have a vision of what type of relationship that you would like to have with them as they transition into adults? Do you imagine that in adulthood they will mature and decide that their mother is as toxic as you think she is? Do you think they will apologize for their treatment and become close to you and CW? I'm trying to understand how you communicate with them and why. There's no reason to answer the questions though.

Edit: I guess I would also be looking forward to high school graduation. After this event I would talk to D about what I would like for graduation and invite her thoughts on how she wants everything to be handled.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 9:04 PM, Friday, February 6th]

DDT - I'm just wondering if anything any of us has said to you here has made any difference in your thoughts either about this event specifically or about your relationship with your ex in general? Or any other change. My feeling is that you just wanted validation from us that you were right in how you were handling this and not to get any actual advice because you seem to reject everything we've said. I just think you were always going to do what you're going to do no matter what we said. Is there anything in this thread that has been useful or meaningful to you?

I do think you and your CW are creating an unnecessarily tense situation for everyone and that, despite your daughter's wishes, your CW should just stay home. It would be the socially graceful thing to do and something that more than a pointless apology would actually serve as a sign to your ex - and anyone else - that she does regret what she's done in the past and is willing to make amends for it. Actions are infinitely more powerful than words.

Overall, I understand that you don't care about how your XW feels in the situation. Why would either of you care about the other in the situation?

It’s hard to describe it. She feels like a distant stranger who I happen to know has these negative traits and who I recall has been bad to me in the past. But as a matter of principle, I regret having cheated. I don’t wish her further harm as a consequence of my actions, but it’s not because I care about her specifically. I wouldn’t wish betrayal trauma or its aftermath on anyone. I do think there are some unfortunate consequences that are just unavoidable, however.

If I understand correctly about the invitation, you feel that you have been slighted and put in second place with all the custody and divorce arrangements with respect to the children. Therefore, the invitation is given by D to you and CW, and you think it would be backsliding for either of you to refuse it for any reason?

The actual custody arrangements were supposed to be 50/50, but because of her attempts to alienate the girls from me, in addition to the factors that were my fault, they decided not to live with me, and I didn’t force them to. But this isn’t really about custody. We, as parents, have not put them first much of the time during and after my affair, and I am trying to change that. I don’t want D to have to navigate our terse relationship and pick between her family members. I’m so sorry that she is nervous about the seating situation. I want her to be able to invite everyone, for whatever reason she may have, and have everyone show up for her without objection or drama. I want her to know that her wants, needs, and feelings are important to me and CW, and that we want to put her first.

I can't imagine trying for a child or having a pregnancy and not talking to my children about that beforehand and having them find out through finding an ultrasound photo several months into the pregnancy.

As I said, we did many things poorly and in the wrong order, and I was making selfish and fear-based decisions at the time. CW eventually came around to see that having a baby then was not a good idea and stopped fertility treatments. The actual conception of my youngest was unexpected, as we were told it would almost certainly not happen without intervention. As a person who has a tendency towards conflict avoidance, the tension in the house while we were all stuck inside together was already unbearable for me, and I kept hoping it would lessen and create "a good time to tell them." I was too cowardly to do it and make things worse, even as CW was telling me it would be worse the longer I waited. So instead of having 37 weeks to adjust to the idea of having a new sibling, they had 17 weeks… Huge mistakes were made. And by "mistakes" I mean "regrettable actions," not "accidents."

I

'm also curious whether your daughters told you that they don't want to be at your house because you insist on no alcohol, or whether that's an assumption you have made. Or if they tell you their feelings, and you assume it's your XW's influence.

I would call it an inference. I don’t think it’s the only factor, but I’m sure it’s a big one. Alcoholism runs in my family, and she has my genes. The frequency of her drinking at her age has me really concerned, especially as she approaches going off to college on her own. It’s gotten bad enough that my eldest actually challenged XW about why she allows and enables it. Of course XW was defensive about it instead of receptive to the constructive criticism. She certainly didn’t want to hear it from me, either.

My house and XW’s fiancé’s house are about equidistant from XW’s house, but she spends just about every weekend at his place, drinking with his daughters. Her friends are also heavy drinkers, so if she brought them around to my place, they would be precluded from drinking instead of enabled. If she has a dependence on alcohol at this point, our house being dry and my dissent to her drinking habit would definitely be a factor in her not spending time here. So much of the time I see her, it’s over dinner on a weeknight or a holiday. I dislike feeling this far removed from her life, but I also am not sure how to change anything.

Overall, do you have a vision of what type of relationship that you would like to have with them as they transition into adults? Do you imagine that in adulthood they will mature and decide that their mother is as toxic as you think she is? Do you think they will apologize for their treatment and become close to you and CW?

Yes. I hope they will live relatively close to us, and spend time with us when they can. We will continue to invite them on vacations and over for the holidays, and I made sure they know they have a room here if they ever want or need it. While we hope it doesn’t happen for several years yet, CW and I would love to have a good relationship with any eventual grandchildren of ours, and spend lots of time with them as well. She loves babies.We are gradually becoming closer with my eldest, at least. I think D is at that age where she wants to go off on her own, away from her parents, so I am trying to give her that space.

I think they already see their mother’s toxic traits. Of course they still love her, because she is their mother, but they know what she’s like.

I don’t think they have anything to apologize for. They were children, and they were supposed to come first. Their feelings about the situation were valid, even if they were influenced by other adults. They were making decisions with what knowledge they were given by the adults they depended on. I don’t blame them for what they chose, even if I struggle with feelings of abandonment myself. I feel robbed of much of their childhood, but at the same time, I understand that they were robbed of a healthy relationship with their father.

DDT - I'm just wondering if anything any of us has said to you here has made any difference in your thoughts either about this event specifically or about your relationship with your ex in general? Or any other change. My feeling is that you just wanted validation from us that you were right in how you were handling this and not to get any actual advice because you seem to reject everything we've said. I just think you were always going to do what you're going to do no matter what we said. Is there anything in this thread that has been useful or meaningful to you?

I created this thread to ask for advice in handling the situation. CW not attending was never really an option, but with the help of those here, we figured out that separate seating arrangements are available and were made, that XW would likely just be made angrier if CW tried apologizing, and that it would be best if she just left instead of trying to diffuse any scene being made. My belief that my daughter should come first has been reinforced. I have been polite to XW, and she got more than her fair share in the divorce, and her way in many, many other coparenting matters. The idea that I'm nasty to her and that's why she's nasty to me is unfounded. I do honestly wish there was something I could do to change that, but I don't think there is. She is who she is.