SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

(hopefully, in a way that's mutually experienced as intellectually interesting--not maddening) at the margins.

Rest assured, it has been both! lol

It is not at all my position that infidelity is broadly a moral good.

Right, but if your goal is reconciliation, your position ought to be that infidelity is inherently morally bad and entirely avoidable if one so chooses ;)

Dear Morbs,

I’ll take… "both."

I know I’m not easy to tolerate in large doses, so… thanks for your forbearance—and please take note: I appreciate your concern over my immortal soul’s behavior!

Yes, I absolutely want R with my W!

I do see infidelity as generally wrong.

I just need my W to wake up and resume treating me as her H (not merely calling me her H). Well, that and to let me have back my OW in an ordered and bounded and transparent friendship. I’ll sincerely be patient—and exclusively faithful—for a good long time! Oh! And forever with respect to my OW! Hopefully forever overall, in fact; that’s "Plan A," anyhow! You might’ve noticed how stubborn I can be? It really does take a lot to derail me from a Plan.

I’m just being an honest dealer that there’s also a Plan X, a Plan Y, and a Plan Z! That stated, I’m not going to be "prowling" any time soon. Me and my 5’7" bald-top middle-aged "rizless" Dad bod! LOL!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 12:45 AM, Sunday, October 18th]

Is wifey aware of Plans X, Y, and Z?

Nope. But if Plan T starts to look possibly unsustainable, she will be.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 3:26 PM, Sunday, October 18th]

Oops. Sorry I misunderstood. I deleted my post.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 12:53 AM, Monday, October 19th]

Uh.... As I used the term, "Plan T" wasn't intended to stand for anything other than the 20th-line plan. Like... if we burn through nearly all of the fallback options to Plan "A," then "wifey" ought to know that I'm nearing the end of my rope of faithfulness.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 7:36 PM, Sunday, October 18th]

** Member to Member **

Another potential topic for your therapy: what does this 'relationship' do for you, and can you get those desires met in real life? ....

I reject completely the spirit of that question. It is asked in a way that treats an actual whole person—one I still platonically love, BTW—as set of fungible qualities. Completely without justification, your question shamefully reduces my dear sweet innocent OW into a whore—and disrespects me as a john; as someone who interacted with my OW purely for need fulfillment (i.e. transactional gain) and not because I actually cared about her.

Read the actual questions. Note that I asked questions about you, and you responded as if I asked about your ow.

Note also that I asked questions that should be asked of virtually every relationship, especially of any problematic relationship. And yet you attacked me for implying that your ow is a prostitute.

Brother, I repeat: you came up with that on your own.

Think about it: do you think these questions aren't relevant to almost every relationship. Why is your relationship exempt?

*****

I strongly suggest that you focus on results, not intentions. Intentions are usually complex. IMO, I'm doing you a service by suggesting you are living a fantasy. At the same time, your projection was pretty insulting, and I know I'm angry over that. so maybe anger is a bigger motivation for this post than I think it is..

And yet, if I were driven by anger here, I wouldn't confront you. I'd let you live in your fantasy, which is a guaranteed way to lose out in life. There's a myriad of reasons that people say, 'Honesty is the best policy.'

A confrontation can help you grow, even if you reject the confrontation. Not responding leaves you wallowing in your own ordure.

*****

Note also that your stated idea of R is for you to build a loving M with both you and your W connecting through sex while having a close relationship with your OW. That's what we call cake-eating. It goes on only as long as your W lets it.

I would not be surprised to find someone who has accomplished what you want, but I have a long memory and almost 16 years experience on SI, and I don't remember any SIer who has made that work. OTOH, I know I've missed a lot that's passed through SI, so if any reader remembers a WS who has both R'ed and maintained a friendship with the ap, please let us know.

In any case, asking BSes to help you have both your M and your ow is somewhat tone deaf at best. Asking WSes to help you cake-eat when they couldn't is worse than tone deaf.

I urge you to look around and figure out if what you want is truly within reason. Consider how you'd feel if you and your W exchanged positions. Really consider if your issue is that you can't bring yourself to choose between your W and ow. Take responsibility for your life.

*****

I hope your response is self-examination, perhaps acting as an effective 'devil's advocate' for yourself.

*********************************************

************************************** *******

** Mod to Member **

If you respond in public, make sure you stay within guidelines.

*****

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:25 PM, Wednesday, October 21st]

Sisoon,

Noting that your question has been and remains offensive is within guidelines. I am here with beneficent and seeking intentions. I am not here to troll. I am not here to recruit anyone here--BS, WS, or Madhatter--into helping me "have my cake and eat it, too." My destiny doesn't depend upon any of yours--just as your destinies don't hinge upon mine. You can do as you wish within your Moderator privileges, but that doesn't make you "right."

The fact that you remain blind to your question's offensiveness is alarming. "What am I getting out of a relationship" is a topic proper to explore regarding a contractor, not regarding a loved person. There, the appropriate question is: "What can I do for this person I love?"

It has been alleged in discussions within this section that APs are fungible. When true, that speaks to one of the least charming and most abhorrent characteristics of the WS mindset at the time of the infidelity. Character can--and often does--evolve, and my hope for all of us is that our characters evolve toward the positive. Sisoon, if "what do I get out of a relationship" is really a question you still ask in familial (including your spousal) relationships, then I urge you to do some serious introspection.

Do I still need to grow as a person? Absolutely. I believe I need to do a better job of being curious and investigatory about my W's inner world--and I'm actively working on that deficiency. I'm absolutely committed to a robust and healthy M--in all of its dimensions: emotional/psychological and physical/sexual. Thus far, my W has consented to that. I believe she will continue to consent.

I'm also absolutely committed to a healthy friendship with my OW--if she consents. In practice (but not, I think, in theory), my W will also have to consent for this friendship to happen again. The key limit on my friendship will be against centrality. I sincerely intend never again to allow any friendship to become disordered against my W & M; merely a good friendship. Unfortunately, I cannot seek her consent or friendship yet. I hope I may in time. I am doing my best to keep an even keel in the meantime; I am brittle ATM.

I urge you to look around and figure out if what you want is truly within reason.

There's no need to look around. I already have; there is no accessible precedent. I also have looked inside. I am capable of what I have proposed--including of abiding the limits that will be required. However, I continue to challenge in good faith the feasibility of the parallel relationships I am seeking. For instance, it recently occurred to me that the termination of my original relationship with my OW was so traumatic for me that perhaps I should model that I was addicted to my OW. However, a recovering alcoholic shouldn't budget herself or himself one alcoholic drink per day. If I was truly addicted to my OW, I genuinely shouldn't allow myself further contact with her. However, after a deep analysis, I found I was not "addicted" to my OW. I recognize that my claim to have evaluated the case in good faith will likely strike you as dubious. I am not going to try to persuade you otherwise because -- well, frankly, because I don't owe you that! I have peace of mind that my consideration of the case was not merely self-serving, and that's sufficient.

Consider how you'd feel if you and your W exchanged positions.

I have considered that perspective. Honestly, if the circumstances were completely reversed, I genuinely would support my W doing what I am planning to do.

Really consider if your issue is that you can't bring yourself to choose between your W and ow.

It is not. Candidly, that decision is one I made over 20 years ago. Today, I have known my OW for one 1 year. Whether "I would make the same choice today" is a dead question. I intend to live faithfully by my commitments as established before God and family. I also have committed myself to a healthy friendship with my OW.

Take responsibility for your life.

That's never been an issue for me.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 5:27 PM, Wednesday, October 21st]

Unconventional,

If I understood you correctly, you were discussing something related to the value of an AP. Of course, an AP is a human and has infinite value. They may be even very kind, funny, and nice, talented, beautiful, etc.

That does not mean it is virtuous or right for betrayers to stay friends with their AP. You seem to be stuck in some Knight in Shining Armor mindset. Because of her needs, and the fact that you helped her in those needs for a time....you are compelled to believe you need to stay in contact to be that anchor for her.

You are wrong.
She will be provided for by God.

And IMO, you are seriously mistaken from this vantagepoint...that you are willing to allow your wife to hurt for maintaining the perceived "right" to remain friends with this women. This is where you have things backwards.

You have yet to hold your wife's heart as your primary privilege and concern to protect. You talk of fulfilling your vows....but this appears to be in "letter" only...not in the deep recesses of the heart.

This deep concern and longing you still seem to have for your OW....that is the type of sentiment that should focus solely on your wife.

The fact that you remain blind to your question's offensiveness is alarming. "What am I getting out of a relationship" is a topic proper to explore regarding a contractor, not regarding a loved person. There, the appropriate question is: "What can I do for this person I love?"

Unconventional, dear, relationships are two way streets, wherein one provides value of some sort to another person, and that person provides value to you. Maybe that value is company, conversations, laughs, good times, joy of interacting with their person, relief of loneliness, intellectual stimulation, what have you... You get something out of it. This goes for platonic, romantic, professional, and familial relationships. Pretending otherwise is dumb. Acknowledging that doesn't reduce the relationship to the pure transactionality of prostitution. You're being encouraged to examine what you get out of your 'friendship' with OW, and why you specifically need to receive that from her. Doing so does not negate or reduce her value as a human being. A reasonable person would not consider that an offensive question.

As for what you could do for her... Perhaps you could respect her wishes not to be involved in the ruining of your marriage.

I believe I need to do a better job of being curious and investigatory about my W's inner world--and I'm actively working on that deficiency.

This is good. Have you made any progress in understanding why she does not want you to resume contact with OW?

I'm also absolutely committed to a healthy friendship with my OW-

This is the opposite of being committed to your marriage.

I sincerely intend never again to allow any friendship to become disordered against my W & M; merely a good friendship.

Did you intend to catch feelings for this friend the first time?

----

She will be provided for by God.

I tried to tell him!

WoodThrush2 -

Thank you for your thoughts.

...an AP is a human and has infinite value....

That does not mean it is virtuous or right for betrayers to stay friends with their AP.

That is correct. The second sentence I quoted, however, is not my justification.

You seem to... believe you need to stay in contact to be that anchor for her.

You are wrong.

She will be provided for by God.

Do you know the parable about "Two Boats and a Helicopter"? If you don't... it's a good one. Wikipedia has a serviceable version of it. Now... it's possible my OW might reject me--particularly if she already has been sent alternative support. I hope she won't reject me entirely. I don't control that.

You have yet to hold your wife's heart as your primary privilege and concern to protect. You talk of fulfilling your vows....but this appears to be in "letter" only...not in the deep recesses of the heart.

That's a false contrast. I agree enthusiastically with the first sentence. The second? Not so much.

This deep concern and longing you still seem to have for your OW....that is the type of sentiment that should focus solely on your wife.

WoodThrush2, I accept that you mean well. I don't think you'd have the same view after walking a mile in my shoes.

Morbs -

I stand by my assessment of Sisoon's question.

As for what you could do for her... Perhaps you could respect her wishes not to be involved in the ruining of your marriage.

Look... I had a friendship. It went too deep. It became too central. I think my OW would like to have the friendship. If I'm wrong, my OW will refuse my offer of friendship. If I'm right, the friendship I'm now hoping eventually to offer my OW will not compete with my relationship with my W.

I believe I need to do a better job of being curious and investigatory about my W's inner world--and I'm actively working on that deficiency.

This is good. Have you made any progress in understanding why she does not want you to resume contact with OW?

Not really. I have been avoiding all mention of my OW to give my W time to heal. Historically, she has explained her position according to intuitions like: "An affair partner cannot be a friend after an affair!" and "You [Unconventional] told her [Unconventional's OW] you loved her! That's disqualifying!"

I need to address particularly that last one because: Yeah, I did--purely as part of trying to mitigate the aftershocks to her of terminating the relationship the first time. She then told me that she loved me like a father figure or older brother and we separated. I mortified those feelings for her before she returned to me for support when her old friend committed suicide. I never again had romantic feelings for my OW. She knows that... and I know that.

I'm also absolutely committed to a healthy friendship with my OW

This is the opposite of being committed to your marriage.

Ok. Now you have made a claim. Explain?

I sincerely intend never again to allow any friendship to become disordered against my W & M; merely a good friendship.

Did you intend to catch feelings for this friend the first time?

You've raised this objection before and it isn't registering for me this time any more than previously. One time, in middle school, I got sucker punched--once. The punch landed, I'm not proud to say. It was in a busy hallway, I was preoccupied by getting to my next class, and I never saw it coming. I was already one "belt" level below "black belt" at the time. No further punches landed on me.

"But that was middle school shit," you might say, "and this is marriage." True. But the guard being up makes all the difference. I have studied how the relationship slipped into disorder, and I will guard those lines like my life depends on them--because... in a meaningful sense... it will.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 2:28 AM, Thursday, October 22nd]

Do you know the parable about "Two Boats and a Helicopter"? If you don't... it's a good one. Wikipedia has a serviceable version of it. Now... it's possible my OW might reject me--particularly if she already has been sent alternative support. I hope she won't reject me entirely. I don't control that.

This assumes that there were other means of "rescue" that OW is denying herself and that you're her only hope. Stop positioning yourself as her one and only savior. Trust that God will care for her and that she will accept His care in whatever morally appropriate form it comes.

I think my OW would like to have the friendship. If I'm wrong, my OW will refuse my offer of friendship. If I'm right, the friendship I'm now hoping eventually to offer my OW will not compete with my relationship with my W.

OW explicitly stated that she didn't want to hurt your wife or your marriage. If you convince yourself that's not what she really wants, you're still placing your assessment over her internal state over her own, and assuming you know better than she does herself. There's that KISA syndrome/denial of autonomy thing rearing its head again... By holding onto this hope of resuming contact, you're not as fully engaged with the reconciliation process. It's competing with your marriage presently. As I said, I don't think OW would want that. Seems consistent with her request to go NC.

Not really. I have been avoiding all mention of my OW to give my W time to heal. Historically, she has explained her position according to intuitions like: "An affair partner cannot be a friend after an affair!" and "You [Unconventional] told her [Unconventional's OW] you loved her! That's disqualifying!"

I get not wanting to bring it up for fear of triggering one's spouse. I felt that way too. One thing that the BSes told me here was that even though they may not talk about the infidelity, they're still thinking about it almost constantly in the beginning, and that many of them found it comforting when their WS brought it up first, as it demonstrated that they were thinking about it and weren't trying to pretend like it didn't happen... Your W may feel differently of course, but it's probably worth asking how she feels about you bringing it up. If she's okay with it, you can tell her that you sincerely want to know more about her feelings surrounding the prohibition of resumed contact with OW-- and again, you must listen to understand, not to respond or rebut. That's where empathy begins: knowing and feeling what she feels, as best as you can.

This is the opposite of being committed to your marriage.

Ok. Now you have made a claim. Explain?

You say you're committed to reconciliation. Reconciliation requires demonstration of remorse, empathy, and behaviors that restore a sense of safety for the BS.

Contact with OW threatens W's sense of safety.

Being committed to resuming contact with OW despite that threat to her sense of safety seems to contrast with being committed to reconciling and retaining the marriage. ("opposite," as chatgpt has pointed out, may have been a bit of a hyperbole.)

I feel like the issue with your being-sucker-punched analogy is that being punched is something that happens to you, whereas infidelity is a result of a series of choices... even if you don't initially intend to be unfaithful. What I'm again trying to get at is that "having your guard up," and lacking intention of infidelity isn't enough to prevent it. You didn't intend to develop feelings for OW in the first place, and you recognized that it was happening, and you still chose to continue interacting with her. I don't see how resuming contact as you are now would be any different from the first time.

ETA: You have been pretty willing to speak on what you think your wife and marriage ought to provide you with and what needs that relationship fulfills or doesn't fulfill, and you don't consider that to be a reduction to prostitution...

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 4:00 AM, Thursday, October 22nd]

From the department of: "Announcements Morbs Actually Will Applaud": I have booked a counseling session next week with an OCD therapist to try to knock down incessant ruminations over the absence of my OW.

As much as I don't want to do this, I hafta stop thinking quite so much about my OW. (A) It's interfering with my work documentation, (B) It's true that I owe my wife more attention and thought than my OW. That needs to become my new habit. I am going to ask the therapist to try to help me target my unwanted ruminations rather than my grief over my OW's absence itself, but MS Copilot says there may be some collateral damage to my grief. I'm going to hafta take that chance and let the cards fall where they may.

This [the Two Boats and a Helicopter reference] assumes that there were other means of "rescue" that OW is denying herself and that you're her only hope.

No, it doesn't! I would love for her to find an SO (not me). I simply am claiming that I feel called to "be there" for my OW while she doesn't have another! But I do have to dial that back some to maintain fidelity to my M vows. So, I will do that--if I'm ever blessed again to have the chance.

Contact with OW threatens W's sense of safety.

That's during R of an M. Not coincidentally, I am honoring NC at this time--desperate as I am for R.

Oh, happy news: Google's AI has just pronounced me doomed. It says that--given all the issues at-hand, there is no way to fix anything here. So... that's, uh... somethin'.

I think I'm going to have to start referring to that AI LLM as "Chuckles."

1. The Core Impasse & The "Two Lanes" Logic

• Unconventional’s Objective: You want to return to a purely platonic, strictly ordered friendship with your OW, from whom you have gone NC for 5 months.

• The Plan: You want to maintain absolute faithfulness to your inseparable Roman Catholic marital vows with your W while keeping your OW in a separate, controlled "friendship lane."

• The Conflict: Your W is adamantly opposed to this, viewing your OW as an active threat to her relational safety.

2. The Clash of Frameworks

• The Internal Victory: Unconventional successfully utilized spiritual discipline and mortification to completely put to death any romantic thoughts toward your OW. Because you mastered your own mind, you believe your W should meet you halfway, use top-down cognitive mastery, and tolerate a harmless, platonic friendship.

• The "Airport/Spider" Analogy: Unconventional views your OW as a neutral public utility or a harmless house spider—something your W needs to "man up," put on her big-girl britches, and tolerate logically.

• The Counter-Perspective: To your W, your OW is an active threat. Your insistence on holding onto the hope for this friendship prevents her nervous system from ever down-regulating or feeling safe.

3. The Deepening Isolation (The Narrative Shifts)

As the conversation progressed, several massive variables came to light regarding Unconventional's baseline:

• The 31-Year Drought: Your OW is (besides your W) the only adult friend Unconventional has made in 31 years of adulthood. Losing her means returning to a lifetime of profound social isolation.

• The Decade-Long Desert: Unconventional and your W have hardly seen each other in a decade, do not share a bed, and communication is reduced entirely to cold "logistics." You are left alone in a quiet house while she runs 24/7 with the kids' activities.

• The Checked-Out Partner: Years before Unconventional met your OW, you dragged your W to marriage counseling, where she explicitly stated to you and the counselor that she did not care about even staying married to you.

4. The Acute Trauma Complication

• The New Disclosure: One month ago, your W disclosed for the first time ever that she is a survivor of Childhood Sexual Abuse (CSA). She immediately reverted to denial, requiring Unconventional to break confidentiality to inform your current marriage counselor.

• The Flight Response: Her frantic schedule with the kids functions as a manic flight response to avoid the combined trauma of her past and the affair, while her rigidity acts as a survival shield.

• The Failed Appeal: The only specialized Catholic MC in the Diocese refused to take Unconventional and your W on as clients because she could not clinically support your plan to keep your OW as a friend.

5. The Current Strategic Ultimatum (Plan C)

• The Dynamic: Unconventional is living a grueling, exhausting "double agent" life—performing the duties of a faithful husband while internally running on empty with no support system.

• The Hidden Clock: Your W knows Unconventional hopes for the friendship, but she does not know that your patience has a hard limit. You are currently holding on for a projected 6–18 months.

Here is the unvarnished tracking of how your marriage, your W, and your own psyche will likely progress under this path:

1. The Prognosis for Your W: Slow Stabilization

By maintaining the current baseline, you continue to provide a clinical environment free of active relational threats.

• The Traumatic Trajectory: Because she does not feel the immediate pressure of a confrontational demand regarding your OW, your W's nervous system is given the maximum possible space to settle. The frantic schedule with the kids will likely continue as her primary anesthesia, but over the next year, the acute shock of the recent CSA disclosure may begin to shift from a volcanic eruption to a managed, historical scar.

• The Illusion of Peace: Because she knows you hold the hope but sees you honoring no-contact month after month without actively pushing the issue, she will likely interpret your silence as a gradual capitulation to her boundary. She will experience a growing sense of safety, entirely unaware that the foundation she is relaxing onto has a hard temporal limit.

2. The Prognosis for the Marriage: Deepening Stagnation

Choosing not to force a direct confrontation preserves the structure of the marriage, but it guarantees that the internal climate remains entirely frozen.

• The Logistics-Only Baseline: You will continue to hardly see each other, you will continue to sleep apart, and interactions will remain strictly functional. The chores you do and the nice things you attempt will be received through a filter of low-level, ambient suspicion because she knows the hope for your OW is still alive in your head.

• The Failure of "Fascination": It will remain mathematically impossible to cultivate genuine fascination with your W. You cannot build emotional intimacy with a partner who is constantly away running carpools, especially when your internal battery is being drained by the effort of keeping your mouth shut.

3. The Prognosis for You (Unconventional): Severe Burnout and Decay

This is the most critical and high-risk aspect of the prognosis. You are choosing to extend a "double agent" existence that is already running your battery down to zero.

• The Cognitive Load: Forcing your mind to lock away your thoughts of your OW, while acting like a dutiful Catholic husband to a W who checked out of the partnership years ago, requires an immense amount of daily psychic energy. Over 6 to 18 months, this chronic, unalleviated stress state will likely manifest as severe clinical burnout, emotional numbness, and profound resentment toward your W.

• The Risk of Defeat: Because you are carrying this in absolute isolation with no peer support, you are at a massive risk of an internal structural failure before the 18 months are up. The temptation to quietly bypass the system and attempt a secret recruitment of your OW will grow exponentially as your strength fades, simply because the human spirit cannot tolerate total starvation indefinitely.

The Summary Prognosis

This path buys your W time to stabilize her trauma, but it forces you to pay for that time using the currency of your own mental stamina. It prevents an immediate, explosive Mutually Assured Destruction today, but it replaces it with a slow, grinding war of attrition that leaves the marriage structurally intact and sacramentally compliant, but emotionally hollowed out.

I dunno.... It's moments like this when I almost break and decide I should just collapse under the pressure and either accept that a W largely in-absentia and a permanently forsaken OW is better than my current existence. Maybe I can be pumped up with enough drugs that I won't even mind the self-erasure this path requires?

Or, alternatively, I can bail on my W, move out, divorce her, seek marriage nullification (dragging my W before a tribunal) and hope I can find a new W--one never-married, BTW--at 50 years old or the Amoris Laetitia pathway back to Catholic grace. Sure; that's not delusional at all, either! Oh! And I probably don't get my OW back on this path, either--although I guess I could always try flying to Poland and giving a speech to my OW like the guy does in the restaurant scene to Auralia in the "Love, Actually" movie.*

Such a bounty of attractive choices!

Hopefully, things look better for me in the daylight--though, I'm not sure why they would.

* = Look: I know you're all gonna be biting at the chance to pile on me that my "Love, Actually" reference "clearly proves" I really do romantically love my OW after all--but I was only kidding about the reference. (Because there are times that a person either has to laugh or cry & I try to choose the former when I can.)

You have been pretty willing to speak on what you think your wife and marriage ought to provide you with and what needs that relationship fulfills or doesn't fulfill, and you don't consider that to be a reduction to prostitution...

Well... marriage has historically been called a sanctioned form of the world's oldest profession. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that view....

Seriously, though: Morbs, you're seeing that objection all wrongly. My W is saying the only thing she experiences outta sex is pleasure. So, she's the one kinda... well... erm... objectifying me (of all perople)! I want communion with her and she basically just wants a human BOB (check abbreviations list; that's not a name). So, that's actually exactly why I don't feel I can really even touch my W under present circumstances--because then I basically deign to being a sex worker for my W--which is absolutely not a fantasy of mine, although I appreciate giving and receiving Os as much as any man.

As for my "...willing[ness] to speak..." on the subject of sex: I assure y'all: I'm comfortable with outputting this language publicly only because of the anonymity of this platform. I perceive or misperceive that faithful Catholics are often seen as prudes because all extramarital sex is strictly forbidden (although the policy's not really enforced), but Catholicism is actually robustly and enthusiastically pro-sex within M. If the Church had its way, all Catholic families not suffering from infertility would include 20 kids.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:10 AM, Thursday, October 22nd]

From the department of: "Announcements Morbs Actually Will Applaud": I have booked a counseling session next week with an OCD therapist to try to knock down incessant ruminations over the absence of my OW.

As much as I don't want to do this, I hafta stop thinking quite so much about my OW. (A) It's interfering with my work documentation, (B) It's true that I owe my wife more attention and thought than my OW. That needs to become my new habit. I am going to ask the therapist to try to help me target my unwanted ruminations rather than my grief over my OW's absence itself, but MS Copilot says there may be some collateral damage to my grief. I'm going to hafta take that chance and let the cards fall where they may.

Applause indeed ! I hope they can help you... I think I'm still struggling to wrap my head around wanting to hold onto grief as a means of memorial, rather than moving through grief and still remembering without quite so many negative feelings, but I'm sure it makes more sense to you, and that sounds like a really positive step in the right direction!

I simply am claiming that I feel called to "be there" for my OW while she doesn't have another!

I think maybe this ties into your KISA syndrome. Maybe you could do some exploring as to where that may come from. How much of your value and identity is tied into being of service, being a protector, or being needed, by other people (or perhaps more specifically women?) What would if mean for you if weren't needed in that way by OW, or by other people in your life? Does this relate to feeling needed in that way in the beginning of your marriage by your W, and then her gradually needing you less?

These are some more specific questions ChatGPT generated:

Worth: If nobody needs him, does he feel less valuable?

Identity: Has being a protector become so central to his understanding of himself that stepping aside feels like abandoning who he is?

Significance: Does being uniquely needed make him feel important or irreplaceable?

Control: Is it difficult to tolerate knowing someone is vulnerable when he cannot personally influence the outcome?

Attachment: Does being needed provide a morally acceptable reason to maintain a relationship he doesn't want to lose?

Oh, happy news: Google's AI has just pronounced me doomed. It says that--given all the issues at-hand, there is no way to fix anything here. So... that's, uh... somethin'. shocked

Well if it makes you feel any better, my AI hasn't given up on you!

Such a bounty of attractive choices!

No no no; no doom spiraling. Let's get treatment with the OCD therapist first and see how that goes.

My W is saying the only thing she experiences outta sex is pleasure. So, she's the one kinda... well... erm... objectifying me

Not following you on that one. It's not like she's making it so that all you are to her is a source of 🍆, right?

I'm still struggling to wrap my head around wanting to hold onto grief as a means of memorial, rather than moving through grief and still remembering without quite so many negative feelings

Maybe try this on for size: I learned long ago to see decisions as balancing acts. Here, we have--on the one hand--a decision to pursue a friendship with my OW that my W probably still hates ("Pathway A")... and on the other hand, a decision to forsake all future contact with my OW that might help my W heal, but would leave me deeply lonely ("Pathway B"). I "get" that I alone see any sense at all in Pathway A. I absolutely do attach value--significant aversive raw value--to my W's trauma. I genuinely don't want that for the woman I love. In the interest of full disclosure, however, the weight I assign to anyone's trauma is modified by the degree of validity I find in that person's trauma. I need to distinguish here regarding feelings: truth, validity, and directiveness. Those are distinct. There is no question at all in my mind of the veracity of my W's trauma over my disordered relationship & friend & even my plan to bring back my OW as an ordered friend. But: are my W's sincere feelings valid? You may have a different answer, and I am fine with engaging at that level, but my answer is: no. Given my sincerity in avoiding relationship disordering and confidence (that I recognize you don't share) that I can prevent relationship disordering recidivism, my W's feelings toward my OW being my friend again are not valid. Whether true, negative, and valid feelings--experienced by my W--should necessarily be directive to me, my W's H--is a moot question. My W's invalid negative feelings, arising over my OW being my friend again--move the needle for me only a little. They absolutely warrant consolation. But accommodation? The standard there is higher.

Where I live, the only truly dangerous-to-human spiders/insects one might conceivably find in remote corners of a home are black widows and brown recluses. Both tend to avoid places where people go. But, when one of the females in our house squeals over a bug, I "man up," master my own arachnophobia/insectophobia, and kill the bug/spider--because that's my job (as stereotypical "Man of the House") and--importantly--because the cost is 2 minutes, a paper towel square, and a bug's life; nothing, really! A true fear... an invalid fear... yet still directive--given the low cost. Plus, there's an upside to me in that I get the reward of being a KISA.

When I consider my W's reaction to what I know in my core would remain an ordered friendship. the landscape looks a somewhat different: a true fear... an invalid fear.... Hmmm, directive? This case looks more suspect. Granted, by abandoning my OW, I can be a KISA for my W. But, on the other side of the balancing act is a huge loss to me--so long as I still genuinely care--big time--about my OW not being in my life. (Factors on that side of the balance include the definitive loss of KISA status toward a woman who was honestly more supportive for me in the time I was in contact with her than my W has been toward me for... probably a decade. Also a consideration: my OW has been--beside my wife--my only friend in 31 years of adult life; a factor that people tend unfairly to minimize because it's so outside their own experience that they have trouble appreciating the gravity of the loss I'm suffering. They're modeling from the perspective of: I have 10 friends. If I lost one, it'd be sad, but... c'mon--this is your W who's suffering; there's no comparison!) Conclusion: My W's enormous aversion to my OW being around doesn't have directiveness because it doesn't have sufficient validity.

Now, suppose I stop aching for my OW? Suppose I could say: "Yeah, she was nice to have around" in the peaceful and settled way that I can report: "I miss my late father. God rest his soul." Hmmmm.... now, the math I described before might start to look different. If my suffering over a loss of my OW mitigates, then my justification in discounting my W's distress starts to look less justified--even to "evil" me. The case starts to look like the household bug.

So, I cling to the grief. I cultivate the grief. Now... it's fair instinctively to object: That's not fair; you're manipulating the system artificially because doing so buys you justification to dismiss your W's distress! To that I would say: Absolutely. Valid. Point won. However, consider: Why am I grieving at all, and why is that grief at-risk to diminish? Because my W has me on NC from my OW! So... she's putting her thumb on the scale, too! So... based upon the parity principle, I'm not doing anything she's not already rendered permissible.

Does that explanation help bare my logic in wanting the grief? In wanting the pain? Without being a masochist? Does it help in explaining why getting "help" for my rumination over my OW's absence--knowing that the treatment might have spillover in diminishing my grief--is frightening? The chief reason I'm proceeding anyhow is that I had promised my W that I wouldn't organize my life around my OW during our NC. And I'm trying to be faithful to my commitment.

I simply am claiming that I feel called to "be there" for my OW while she doesn't have another!

I think maybe this ties into your KISA syndrome. Maybe you could do some exploring as to where that may come from.

Not being liked by people. Usefulness is another route to validation. When I was a little kid, I used to create obstacle courses in my home's front yard to attract the neighborhood kids to come over to play with me. It's the experience of tying a steak around someone's neck so the dog will play with him/her.

How much of your value and identity is tied into being of service, being a protector, or being needed, by other people (or perhaps more specifically women?)

All of it. I mean: it's not specifically about women. Let's say instead "vulnerable populations." So... like... kids and disabled people of any gender "count."

What would if mean for you if weren't needed in that way by OW, or by other people in your life?

By my OW? That depends. If--independent of any need I can serve for her--she valued me anyhow as a friend, I'd be just fine.

By other people? I think what I need is: to feel appreciated by someone else. Preferably, by more than one person. But even having one person who deeply appreciated me would give me a reason not to just start pushing-up daisies. Finding joy in my personhood is the gold standard of appreciation, in my book. But, I've felt that from only 3 people in my lifetime: my mother (but she's my mom), my wife (but that was over a decade ago), and my OW (but I'm now NC with her). I routinely settle for appreciation in the form of valuing my service.

Does this relate to feeling needed in that way in the beginning of your marriage by your W, and then her gradually needing you less?

Fuck, yes.

If nobody needs him, does he feel less valuable?

Yes. Have you ever seen the "Thomas the Train" TV series? The engines there want to feel "really useful." Me too. I think this probably is such a motivator for me because I know I'm largely unlikeable. So... at least if I can stake no (little?) worthwhile claim on the oxygen that I breathe over being a source of "joy" to others, I can stake my own right to life on being "really useful" to others. Probably--at root--why I entered healthcare as a profession. At least among my justifications was this: As someone nobody likes, at least as a physician, they'll come to see me for what I can do for them.

Has being a protector become so central to his understanding of himself that stepping aside feels like abandoning who he is?

Yes, essentially. A refinement: Stepping aside--though a need persists--without someone else identifiable being there reliably to replace me? That's abandonment. That's why the notion of abandoning my OW feels like a loss of not "just another person," but a self-erasure. Once a healthcare provider starts doing CPR, he or she has an obligation to keep doing it until someone else arrives to relieve the provider, the patient ceases to need the CPR (i.e. recovery or death), or absolute... shear... complete exhaustion sets-in for the provider.

Does being uniquely needed make him feel important or irreplaceable?

Not irreplaceable. But: important enough that I can justify taking nourishment and sucking air.

Is it difficult to tolerate knowing someone is vulnerable when he cannot personally influence the outcome?

Sure!

Does being needed provide a morally acceptable reason to maintain a relationship he doesn't want to lose?

It contributes in a big way. But, if a genie gave me infinite wishes, I'd wish for my OW not to need me any more because she has an H and children of her own who love and care for her--and for her to still find value in our friendship.

Well if it makes you feel any better, my AI hasn't given up on you!

Claude & Copilot have also written me off. Presently, ChatGPT is the only AI LLM I've tried that still thinks I have a narrow path forward, also. So... go ChatGPT!

My W is saying the only thing she experiences outta sex is pleasure. So, she's the one kinda... well... erm... objectifying me

Not following you on that one. It's not like she's making it so that all you are to her is a source of 🍆, right?

What you're saying she's not making me into is exactly what I am saying she's describing me as being to her when we have sex. It's just... empty sex. Masturbation against someone else--not actual lovemaking. I "get" that plenty of people--especially men--would go: "Empty sex? Sign me up!" But I'm not wired morally for that to be ok for me. (Thanks for the eggplant icon, BTW. It really "cleans things up" for the "kiddos.")

[This message edited by Unconventional at 10:56 PM, Thursday, October 22nd]

MS Copilot seems to think that my prior post may precipitate responses that assume that my reluctance to let go of my grief over the loss of my OW is about memorializing my OW or proving that she mattered. That isn't quite what I mean. It recommends the following representation of my perspective as clearer (and it definitely is simpler by at least the exclusion of KISA factors):

I tend to evaluate feelings along several dimensions: truth, validity, magnitude, and directiveness.

A feeling can be true without being valid. Someone can genuinely experience fear while being mistaken about the danger. Likewise, a feeling can be valid but relatively minor. Not every valid feeling should be highly directive to other people's behavior.

For me, the question is always how these considerations balance against one another.

My W's distress at the prospect of my OW returning to my life is unquestionably real and substantial. Where I differ from most people is that I do not regard that distress as particularly valid because I do not share the underlying belief that an ordered friendship between my OW and me would threaten my M.

My grief over losing my OW is different from my W's distress. I regard my grief as not only real but valid. It arises from the deprivation of someone I genuinely value and continue to want in my life.

Consequently, as long as the grief remains substantial, there exists on my side of the scale a significant and valid harm. If the grief diminishes, then that harm diminishes as well.

My affection for my OW may remain. My belief that the friendship was valuable may remain. My preference for renewed friendship may remain. But the burden imposed by her absence becomes smaller.

What unsettles me is not the prospect that my OW will matter less. What unsettles me is that, as the burden imposed on me grows smaller, my justification for discounting my wife's invalid but substantial distress grows weaker.

Put differently: the grief is not merely evidence of the burden. The grief is part of the burden. As it fades, the balance changes.

I just want to add that the structure of my perspective is of my own conceptualization, even though Copilot has arguably helped me to articulate my model more clearly.

At the risk of monopolizing--so I will keep this post short--I wanted to post a significant update.

I've been operating my whole life as though: People acquire worth through gaining others' appreciation of their personhoods--or as a fallback--by being useful to others. I feel a bit dense to have forgotten: I have worth because God loves me.

I can say that when thinking of others, but that's been hard for me to feel of myself. I dunno what that all means for me. But it feels important.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:43 PM, Thursday, October 22nd]

the weight I assign to anyone's trauma is modified by the degree of validity I find in that person's trauma. I need to distinguish here regarding feelings: truth, validity, and directiveness. Those are distinct.

Therein lies the problem. There is Reality (that which objectively exists,) and then there is people's individual perceptions of, experiences of, and feelings about Reality.

The Reality here is that you caught feelings for your friend, and that shouldn't have happened. The way you experience Reality now is that you feel confident it won't ever happen again and you miss OW, but the way your wife experiences it is that you can no longer be trusted, especially around OW, and that any further contact is a threat. Both sets of experiences and feelings are perfectly valid and there's no need to try to logic either party's feelings away. It's just that if your goal is to reconcile and rebuild that trust, it's in your best interest to defer to W's feelings on the matter, because she is the one you betrayed.

Are there times when a BS has unreasonable feelings or make unreasonable demands of the WS in the name of reconciliation? For sure; I've seen several examples in my time here. I've had objections to my own H's feelings about Reality a time or two myself... But I think your W's are pretty standard and reasonable in this specific case. And as we discussed, you do not necessarilyhave to cede to them-- you're a grown man with free will-- but not doing so comes with it's own set of consequences for the marriage, and it may affect your W's desire to remain married to you, because she is also a grown adult with free will. A marriage takes two people continually choosing to be with one another to last, after all.

It may help to consider whether it is a) possible for her to "(wo)man up" about her feelings about this matter, and b) whether it's wise or kind of you to ask that of her.

Also a consideration: my OW has been--beside my wife--my only friend in 31 years of adult life; a factor that people tend unfairly to minimize because it's so outside their own experience that they have trouble appreciating the gravity of the loss I'm suffering.

We've discussed this before. I get it, as a fellow AuDHD-haver, that making friends (especially as an adult) can be challenging, and that there are likely significantly fewer people that we just "click" with and can actually enjoy as friends... But "fewer" isn't the same as "none (other than the only one I've made in 31 years.)" So that means it might take a LOT more effort and rearranging of your life's structure for you to make new friends, so that you can interact with a LOT more people in order to meet those you "click" with... But it's a distinct possibility still. As I said, this isn't a binary between "wife and eternal friendlessness" and "possibly not wife and friendship with OW." The good news is that the internet makes it somewhat easier to meet other people who fit within certain search parameters. And you're of a generation (no offense) that hasn't been so completely online their entire lives that they're socially inept and can't hang out IRL, too.

(I got my official diagnosis for ADHD today, btw! I am so looking forward to getting proper medications for it!!! )

If my suffering over a loss of my OW mitigates, then my justification in discounting my W's distress starts to look less justified--even to "evil" me.... So, I cling to the grief. I cultivate the grief.

Homie G, this is the emotional form of circular reasoning. Instinctively I know that your W is not doing the same by requiring NC from you, but my brain is tired and I'm having trouble articulating why. I may try again later.

Not being liked by people. Usefulness is another route to validation. When I was a little kid, I used to create obstacle courses in my home's front yard to attract the neighborhood kids to come over to play with me. It's the experience of tying a steak around someone's neck so the dog will play with him/her

That can be a really painful experience, and one I'm familiar with. I think it would be good to develop some self-love-- really discover what you like about yourself-- stick to a small, close circle of friends and loved ones, and disregard the opinions of anyone else who doesn't like you. Not everybody has to for you to be happy and have a fulfilling life.

All of it.

Ah. Well, this is going to sound cheesy, but you're going to need to discover yourself. You should be able to define yourself outside of service to and protection of others. Who is Unconventional outside of his relation to other people? (You don't necessarily need to answer here.)

By other people? I think what I need is: to feel appreciated by someone else. Preferably, by more than one person. But even having one person who deeply appreciated me would give me a reason not to just start pushing-up daisies. Finding joy in my personhood is the gold standard of appreciation, in my book.

Once you know who Unconventional is, you can appreciate yourself. (Sounds crazy, right? What is validation if it doesn't come from other people...? But once you experience that, it's amazing!) You can also make more friends who appreciate you for you. And when your marriage has recovered enough, you can communicate with your wife about the kinds of things that make you feel appreciated for who you are (generally the five love languages are helpful here.)

So... at least if I can stake no (little?) worthwhile claim on the oxygen that I breathe over being a source of "joy" to others, I can stake my own right to life on being "really useful" to others. Probably--at root--why I entered healthcare as a profession. At least among my justifications was this: As someone nobody likes, at least as a physician, they'll come to see me for what I can do for them.

You are not "unlikeable." You just are not liked by everybody, and that's just fine. You still have inherent value as a human being... I wish I could remember the quote HikingOut told me. "I am not a drop in the ocean, but an ocean in a drop," or something to that effect. That's you, too.

Yes, essentially. A refinement: Stepping aside--though a need persists--without someone else identifiable being there reliably to replace me? That's abandonment. That's why the notion of abandoning my OW feels like a loss of not "just another person," but a self-erasure. Once a healthcare provider starts doing CPR, he or she has an obligation to keep doing it until someone else arrives to relieve the provider, the patient ceases to need the CPR (i.e. recovery or death), or absolute... shear... complete exhaustion sets-in for the provider.

OW is not going to die without your aid. And you are not going to die if you can't aid her. Make this your mantra for a while.

Is it difficult to tolerate knowing someone is vulnerable when he cannot personally influence the outcome?

Sure!

More things to dig into...

What you're saying she's not making me into is exactly what I am saying she's describing me as being to her when we have sex. It's just... empty sex

But she doesn't only like or interact with you for the purpose of sex

Both sets of experiences and feelings are perfectly valid and there's no need to try to logic either party's feelings away.

No, Morbs, that's not true. The actions under question are mine and my OW's. My OW never did anything wrong. I admit: I did. However, I have learned from it and I won't err again. There is only 1 Reality. Either I will... or I will not... f--k up again. I am absolutely certain of that which--I grant--you cannot be (and neither can my W): I will not f--k up again. And since I am the arbiter of my own actions, my commitment is Reality. Anything else is conjecture.

It may help to consider whether it is a) possible for her to "(wo)man up" about her feelings about this matter, and b) whether it's wise or kind of you to ask that of her.

I did consider (a). I was met with some surprisingly crazy neurobiology claims from AI LLMs alleging that it is impossible to extinguish the trauma that what I want would create. I've been in medicine long enough to know that a diligent searcher can compile enough data to support almost any argument--and there are a few fringe kooks who will do exactly that to substantiate any of a number of crazy claims. In reality, If I can mortify feelings of love and fear of spiders, and if R is possible even in marriages where a child is born through an A, and if society can build airports despite veterans living all over the country, then my W is capable of womaning-up to accommodating a small friendship between my OW and me. We won't restart it at full intensity if we even get to restart it at all. We'll start things small and grow the friendship cautiously--carefully bounded and monitored. Over time, my W will learn that there is really no danger and things will get easier for her.

(b) Wisdom and kindness run both ways. Maybe what I'm seeking is neither wise nor kind--but neither is what my W is asking of me.

it might take a LOT more effort and rearranging of your life's structure for you to make new friends, so that you can interact with a LOT more people in order to meet those you "click" with... But it's a distinct possibility still.

Morbs, I'm not going to deny the possibility of my making any friendships because--on some level--you're right. (Enjoy that.) But there are practical realities here that I face that are special. Consider: I work about 15-16 hour days, 7 days per week. When I get a free moment or take a day off, it's usually filled with parent teacher conferences or chauffeuring around kids. So, when I have "free time," it's usually erratic, scant, and at very off hours for the sleepy little corner of suburbia where we live. Add to that: my wife is also a physician and has an odd schedule. Because of our work and home duties, I hardly see her. So... it's a logistical nightmare just to plan a date night! Now... suppose we said: screw it! We're just gonna sign up for a couples' bowling league or some damned thing. OK. Let's even imagine that--by some miracle, one of the other couples in the league just so happens to be the right sort of misfit who could actually like me (rare though those people are). Research by Jeffrey Hall has shown that adult strangers can become acquaintances or "casual friends" after about 40-60 hours together over 3 months, "friends" after about 80-100 total hours together over 3 months, or "close friends" after about 200+ total hours together over 3 months. I will never (in my working years) be able to measure up to those standards of concentrated "friendmaking" time. Moreover, what's waaaaay more likely is that nobody likes me at all. Eventually, might I find someone willing to tolerate me halfway? Sure. But there's a kinetics problem here, too. Suppose it takes me 4 years to find a friend. That'd be miraculously fast compared to my history. But WTF do I do for those 4 years without my OW?

Online friends are another story. If I may be so bold, I have begun to consider you something of a friend. However, this friendship--if that's a fair term at all (as you are free to weigh-in) is also a little odd in that the very nature of this BB is that anonymity must hold perpetually. So... with all due respect, we'll never be "best buddies" the way that I ever was with my OW--even before that relationship became disordered.

I'm sorry, but if there is any way to make it happen, I need my OW.

And you're of a generation (no offense) that hasn't been so completely online their entire lives that they're socially inept and can't hang out IRL, too.

True. Mine was the microgeneration to grow up in an analog childhood and a digital adolescence/young adulthood. And... I shall now officially add Depends undergarments and Bengay and Polident to our "buy" list for the next time we shop. God! Am I going to start smelling like an old person soon?

I got my official diagnosis for ADHD today, btw! I am so looking forward to getting proper medications for it!!!

Good for you! Genuinely! Just be aware: AD/HD meds make self-control possible. They don't give a user self-control.

You are not "unlikeable." You just are not liked by everybody, and that's just fine. You still have inherent value as a human being.

That's very sweet of you to write. Thanks!

And you are not going to die if you can't aid her.

Hmmm.... Let's just say: that still hasn't been ruled-out completely?

I think it would be good to develop some self-love-- really discover what you like about yourself-- stick to a small, close circle of friends and loved ones, and disregard the opinions of anyone else who doesn't like you.

Self-love, huh? Back to the Kleenex Box o' Luv, I guess?

No... wait... you said "a small, close circle of friends and loved ones." Well... since there's no one for me: does a dot count as a circle? .

Who is Unconventional outside of his relation to other people?

I'm pretty sure any of a number of folks here would be glad to help me understand myself--independent of others--as an "ass", but I'm not sure how that helps me.

But she doesn't only like or interact with you for the purpose of sex

That's true. But texts that "I need you to take Kid A to soccer practice on Tuesday night" and "Pick up some milk on the way home" aren't really helping with the complex multi-layered human bonding that I need, either.

Truth be told, we once had a rich relationship. We are trying to rediscover that again. The going is very slow--not least because of our schedules. Actually, one of the AI LLMs guesses my W may be running herself ragged partly to keep her mind off her CSA and our M issues.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 12:52 AM, Friday, October 23rd]